America Redesign

[iOnlySignIn]

I'm pretty sure it's for gameplay reasons. Look at France; their UP means they never refuse to talk to you, and this is incredibly easy to exploit. Play as Italy if you really want to see this: no matter how weakened you are, France is never a thread because you can instantly buy off their DoWs. The same goes for attacking France: it doesn't matter how strong they are, as long as you can manage to conquer a single city. Then you pay them a bit of gold for peace to prevent them to strike back. (For this reason I think the French UP should only work from their side, not from other civs' side)

You can do the exact same exploitation with any other civ, not just France - all you need to do is to wait a few turns first.

I hope you're not advocating using this "Refuse to Talk" mechanism to cover up flaws in other aspects of AI behavior (such as Peace making conditions). Because that is as effective and sensible as wearing thick makeup as a treatment to syphilis.

That said, French UP should definitely work only from their side. It's not like the Greek UP increases the GP rate of other civs, yes?

 

[iOnlySignIn]

The answer to your problem is in your post, I don't understand how you don't have a fleet of Ship of Lines in 1805 defending your coast.

Because:

(1) America has more than 10 Coast tiles from the start, I would need at least one ship on each of the tile to prevent a Russian landing. Otherwise they just land at a tile which I don't cover, yes?

(2) Not only that, one SotL (Ship of the Line) is not enough to beat 4 Frigates. You need at least 2 on each tile. That means 20 SotLs.

(3) Russia has OB with France, which means the can just land in New Orleans. This means I'd have to declare war on France, and cover those French coastal tiles. That's an extra 10 Coastal tiles.

(4) So it's >20 coastal tiles, with at least 2 SotLs on each. That's at least 40 SotLs. Also remember America is at war with England on spawn. So I'm fighting the Royal Navy simultaneously, as well as the French (which I just declared war on) Navy. But let's assume the RNGs favor me and I don't loose a single SotL to France or England. Not only that, I don't even take damage. All I need to do is to prepare for the Russian Navy's landing.

(5) So you're suggesting I should build 40 SotLs in what is the first 10 turns of the game, while holding off a land war with England. Sure, give me about 2 million on spawn and I might just be able to do it.

Or will you teach me some of your uber1337 techniques of coastal defense developed from all those Domination games of yours?

 

[Tomorrow's Dawn]

Because:

(1) America has more than 10 Coast tiles from the start, I would need at least one ship on each of the tile to prevent a Russian landing. Otherwise they just land at a tile which I don't cover, yes?

(2) Not only that, one SotL (Ship of the Line) is not enough to beat 4 Frigates. You need at least 2 on each tile. That means 20 SotLs.

(3) Russia has OB with France, which means the can just land in New Orleans. This means I'd have to declare war on France, and cover those French coastal tiles. That's an extra 10 Coastal tiles or more.

(4) So it's >20 coastal tiles, with at least 2 SotLs on each. That's at least 40 SotLs. Also remember America is at war with England on spawn. So I'm fighting the Royal Navy simultaneously, as well as the French (which I just declared war on) Navy. But let's assume the RNGs favor me and I don't loose a single SotL to France or England. Not only that, I don't even take damage. All I need to do is to prepare for the Russian Navy's landing.

(5) So you're suggesting I should build 40 SotLs in what is the first 10 turns of the game, while holding off a land war with England. Sure, give me about 2 million on spawn and I might just be able to do it.

Or do you have some uber1337 secret techniques of coastal defense developed from all those Domination games, huh Jusos?

I'm sort of in the middle in between you guys.

I mostly keep a few Frigates/SotLs parked in my coastal cities ready to pick at ships that sail by and then retreat back to port.
That works pretty well enough.
There is no need to exceed 15, or even 12 ships at any given time.

However, I've never been able to amass more than 5-8 ships,
and losing one already feels crippling, especially when I need
the other Hammers to go to more productive ventures; sometimes, the RNG is simply unforgiving, without resorting to save scumming, anyway.

Also, I can't find the post, but related and from the vanilla RFC forum, you need to see usi's "Great Wall of Ethiopia", iOnlySignIn.

 

[iOnlySignIn]

Or, we can make a very simple change to the game:

Land units in naval transports cannot disembark if the transport has moved in the same turn.

There, problem solved. No more impossible-to-defend surprise landings. All I need is 4 SotLs and 4 Frigates and I can wipe out the entire invasion force before they land (instead of after, which would be meaningless). You'd have a much more realistic naval/amphibious combat.

To compensate for this, increase the movement speed of all Naval units.

 

[Tomorrow's Dawn]

^I both love and loathe that idea at the same time, for all the obvious reasons you can possibly think of.

Leaning towards the latter since it would be taking away my favorite military maneuver (in DoC).

For one though, it weighs heavily on defense especially the defense of the AI.
If you're forced to wait before landing, the AI can wipe out your fleet before you can get a stack on the ground.
It also forces critical landing stages for certain civs (I'm looking at you, Japan) to fail by the bane of being forced to wait.

 

[iOnlySignIn]

^ Perhaps an exception can be made for units with Amphibious Promotion.

Taking away an exploitative mechanism can actually make the game more fun for you. Well, for me.

This new mechanism will also make naval superiority actually mean something.

 

[Tomorrow's Dawn]

It's not so much an exploitative mechanism as much as it is a natural workaround of how to not lose your own ships with regards to how the AI operates.
The AI often builds large fleets that are undesirable to engage directly at tech parity, which is what it'll be from 3000BC until the first oil-based navies,
and in the majority of circumstances for many civs up until they have teched to an advantage.

The most intelligent course of action, is to take their port city amphibiously and burn their fleet while it's still in the harbor.

 

[Jusos2108]

@IOSI: Are you seriously saying that you are afraid of the AI's amphibious assaults?
I get one unlucky game where the AI is smart enough to land a meaningful army on your doorstep and you began whining about the whole system.

Oh, and my coastal defence strategy is very similar to TD's, always end the turn in safety. 4-5 SoLs are enough in 1805 unless there is a monster AI present, which is quite rare.

 

[iOnlySignIn]

@IOSI: Are you seriously saying that you are afraid of the AI's amphibious assaults?
I get one unlucky game where the AI is smart enough to land a meaningful army on your doorstep and you began whining about the whole system.

Oh, and my coastal defence strategy is very similar to TD's, always end the turn in safety. 4-5 SoLs are enough in 1805 unless there is a monster AI present, which is quite rare.

Posting a bunch of laughing emoticons does not make your point stand better. It merely makes it look like you've been poisoned by the Joker.

And I don't whine. When I address a problem, I present solutions to it. You are free to pretend that the problems don't exist if it makes you feel superior, but do not expect everyone to follow your example.

 

[blizzrd]

I agree with jusos, the AI's ability to make amphibious assaults is genuinely hopeless and usually laughable (hence the emoticons, which were appropriate in this case). The number of times that I've seen the AI land their siege troops next to my cities but no other troops would be far greater than the number of times that I've seen them land both siege troops and other units. I have played an awful lot of games when I say that.

I do not believe that there is a fundamental flaw in the game which relates to coastal assaults by the AI. You got unlucky, in that Russia was strong enough to annihilate you with an amphibious assault. That is a byproduct of the late American start and random-number generator.

 

[SeekTruthFromFacts]

Also, I can't find the post, but related and from the vanilla RFC forum, you need to see usi's "Great Wall of Ethiopia", iOnlySignIn.

I had to find this.
Picture: http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=227629&d=1252730716
Post: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=333833

Reading that thread is astonishing. How on earth do you win space, diplo, conquest and UHV with one city???? His mind must just work differently to mine. And perhaps a lot of reloads???

 

[Tomorrow's Dawn]

I had to find this.
Picture: http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=227629&d=1252730716
Post: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=333833

Reading that thread is astonishing. How on earth do you win space, diplo, conquest and UHV with one city???? His mind must just work differently to mine. And perhaps a lot of reloads???

I wanted to see it for myself so I did it myself, as well.
So I guess that means I'm part of the club?
I am the Netherlands in the Panama by the way.



See my disclosure in the SVN Thread, but I'd like to bring up that
I think the latest round of changes have made America too good.

 

[strijder20]

I had to find this.
Picture: http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=227629&d=1252730716
Post: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=333833

Reading that thread is astonishing. How on earth do you win space, diplo, conquest and UHV with one city???? His mind must just work differently to mine. And perhaps a lot of reloads???

With city-states it's only moderately hard with most civs (I remember winning space as Byzantium once) but of course he didn't have that at his disposal, and was playing freaking Ethiopia.

 

[Tomorrow's Dawn]

With city-states it's only moderately hard with most civs (I remember winning space as Byzantium once) but of course he didn't have that at his disposal, and was playing freaking Ethiopia.

Yeah, I was running City States + Absolutism + Egalitarianism + Forced Labor + Scholasticism + Commonwealth.
Although I wasn't stockpiling on Merchants until the very end, mostly because:
1. I needed mostly Scientists to tech up, and as you can see, I barely made it with a 2020 Space Win.
2. It was my first time ever trying City States, and I hadn't used Merchant specialists enough to realize they provided food.
First order of business was to get Civics up, get an equatorial non-European capital, whip a Theatre, then whip Opera House.
From then on, pretty much everything is auto-pilot.

 

[SerailHydra]

How about this UHV for USA: Ensure no country adopts Supreme Council, Totalitarianism, Forced Labor and State Property in AD1990. Also consider making sure all countries adopt Republic, which can be harder. The deadline can be adjusted.

You can use hundreds of spies or vassalize as many countries as you can. You can also take advantages of UN resolution, then you may want to deal with those who always defy.

 

[Tomorrow's Dawn]

How about this UHV for USA: Ensure no country adopts Supreme Council, Totalitarianism, Forced Labor and State Property in AD1990. Also consider making sure all countries adopt Republic, which can be harder. The deadline can be adjusted.

Not appropriate considering how the United States has and currently still does prop up and support non-democratic states.
Not to mention instigating coups in nations with democratically elected leaders and replacing them with dictators.

http://www.tomveatch.com/dictatorships.html

The current UHVs designed are fine as is.

 

[SheaferDaDawg]

]

Not appropriate considering how the United States has and currently still does prop up and support non-democratic states.

Sadly true. Ever read up on Guatemala and the rest of the Central American wars sponsored by the US?

EDIT: Noob question here, how do I quote properly on the forums? Sorry for the inconvenience.

 

[DC123456789]

Press the quote button at the bottom right of the post you want to quote (it's beside the multi(quote) button), and the quote will be automatically made as you continue to type your message.

 

[Leoreth]

Simply use the quote/multi buttons right below the post you want to quote.

 

[Hamir]

Or, we can make a very simple change to the game:

Land units in naval transports cannot disembark if the transport has moved in the same turn.

There, problem solved. No more impossible-to-defend surprise landings. All I need is 4 SotLs and 4 Frigates and I can wipe out the entire invasion force before they land (instead of after, which would be meaningless). You'd have a much more realistic naval/amphibious combat.

To compensate for this, increase the movement speed of all Naval units.

I understand where you're coming from but the more I think about it the less workable this idea seems.

By the modern era you could just keep one decent stack of destroyers and you essentially are completely safe from ever having an enemy army land amphibiously, no?

And not only would you be destroying their sitting duck navy, but all the troops inside...