An In-depth Analysis of the Thought Process in Playing an Immortal Game

[ABigCivFan]

Now all of that said - I think you played what you were given perfectly, much better than I would have. The tech and resource trades are particularly good, as well as the boldness of going to war to grab workers and generate a GG. Still, I doubt this opening could be equaled in a hundred starts with random civ enabled - so a typical Immortal game guide, this is not.

Sunrise, i agree with you that this is an ideal starting spot for Inca and for this game. But in the following posts you will see that the AIs also started in Great spots. And They would throw stacks of 10-20 well-promoted units at me. (Conquistors for instance) This game is not about how a super strong openning you have, it is about how strong you are Relative to everyone else through out the game.

IIRC, in this game, An AI swordsman still costs only 24
An AI knight still costs only 54
And their techs are still 40% cheaper.

I recommend you try this game out yourself, it is a great map.

Also the purpose of this thread was to share the "thought process" when playing a game with what you have and what you are up against. It was not meant to be an "Immortal Guide". As I said before I had played almost all leaders on these same settings, and this was one of most satisfying.

When this thead is completed, i do think new players can learn a few things(tech/res trading, city specialization, wonder synergy, tech path, diplomatics, general war strategies and etc) and gain a better understanding of the game mechanics and use them in their own plays.

I have heard many people asking the question saying they build all the wonders and still lost the game, and some people saying on high levels all they can do is all out Axe/Sword/Prat rush, I think this game shows some balance between building and warmongering.

I just thought the best way to learn something this complex is by a good example.

 

[ABigCivFan]

BTW, I noticed you settled right ontop of your stone resource! That will cut down on a lot of free hammers from a quarry. I assume you figured time was of such the essense that you weren't going to bother with a stone quarry?

I only lost 1 hammer from the quarry. But gained a vital for the first 50 turns prior to masonary; that hammer helped building the 1st worker 3 turns faster, built boats and settlers faster. and saved 4 worker turns to build the quarry.

 

[Heeringas]

Exellent start I must say.
I´m aslo Immortal player,winning, if I have currage to play till the end. (and if my old computer wants to cooperate with me)

But as you say, in Immortal ,start is important,but still some civs are going to be really hard to beat in the later phase, so strat is not everything...

I have been really successfull with starting strategies lately, but I´m getting lazy later, after chemistry...Reason for My succesful starts might be the use of "early civilizations" like Persia, inca, or egypt...

I hope your coming post will give some light for successful end game as well...Thanks ABigCivFan

 

[ABigCivFan]

I'm very puzzled at why you build the GW. If there is one thing I"ve heard time and time again from Immortal level players, it's
Don't go after defensive techs
Don't go after defensive wonders
Don't go after defensive units
To play defensively = admitting defeat on the elite levels.

A good player has to be flexible, there is no "never" situiation in this game.

I had stone, built the GW in less than 8 turns(with chopping) because I Anticipated that I might be fighting a multi-front war. The potential for fighting in my territory is large.

In my game the GG points gained from GW was ridiculous when Izzy threw her stacks of Conquistors at my walled cities; or when I destroyed 10+ unit stack Brennus sent into my territory @720AD. You will see in the later posts.

Yes you do get the bonus when DEFENDING in your territory.

At these settings, AIs build very strong military, you wont be able to always fight in their territory. I almost always have to destroy large stacks of AI offensive units in MY territory before go on offensive.

ps. How can you ever be sure A wonder that you want will be built by you next door neighbor for you to capture 5 turns later?

 

[Heeringas]

I think Great wall was good call. It really helps getting First GG faster... Only if you have a neighbour close. And in this situatioin there was really close ones... I would have made it as well...GW is great for offensive, because you get better troops sooner (settled GG)...only for that short moment when stupid AI send small stacks inside great wall, it´s clever to be "defensive"

 

[futurehermit]

Plus GW gives rare GE points!!!

 

[obsolete]

Hmm. Does anyone then know of any essay that goes over the GG point accumulation algorithms?

That could be quite useful to go over...

 

[ABigCivFan]

100 AD: I gave Roosy Compass for mere 90 gold and coverting to my religion. I wanted him to build those harbors quickly so I could get more commerce from his future trade routes.

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125 AD: Izzy sent small stacks of Axe/Swords, I tried to lure them into that grassland tile by fortifying the surrounding Hills and Jungle tiles. I see good GG pts being milked haha

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200 AD: Researched machinery, Maceman on line.

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325 AD: I had built Angkor Wat (stone based) in Capital. I burned a GS to bulb Philo just to get this wonder. The reason is that I wanted to increase hammers in capital, and the best way to do that is using AngkerWat prophets(they give 1 more gold than Great Engineers). Here is Wat in action help building the Colossus(119 hammers with a big AngkerWat hammer overflow and copper bonus). Also since I have Philo holy city without shrine now, the additional GP pts won't hurt.

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520 AD: Military build up for a war, most likely aganst Izzy.

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560 AD: Brennus hit me with a surprise attack in 540AD, I was glad to stand up to him. Got the 2nd GG. Used him on a Military Academy in my HE city.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/101615/560AD_2ndGG_MilAcademy.JPG

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660 AD: While I was laying siege to his Capital, Brennus couter attacks with a stack of 12 units.

I was very impressed with AI's prod capability, look carefully at Brennus capital, it had 10+ defenders inside as that point, yet he was still capable of counter attack with 13 units (add that lone HA). Too bad there were too many CG longbows in his stack who could server better purpose to defend his cities lol...

I built a couple of barrage catapults to deal with them. Again, this invasion force should give me some nice GG points dying in my borders. Bulk of this force was long bows, I quickly bulit some horse archers from HE city to couter them. I did not build more powerful units Since they were far from the HE city, and I could built 1 HA/turn at that point.

When the fight started, i suicide 2 barrage catapults first, then used a combo of HAs, Maces, xbows and a pike to dislodge this stack. Soon after I got the 3rd GG, and used him on a level 3 Medic chariot, upgraded free to knight.

Also note that I was 2 turns from Liberalism. Took Astronomy(the most expensive) as free tech. It canceled Colossus, but observetories more than offset for that.

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720 AD: Civic change(Theocracy) to build better quality troops and utilize Caste system.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/101615/720AD_Civic_Change.JPG

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780 AD: Celt capital was too hard to crack(too many defending units), so I moved my forces north to capture a nice size 13 coastal city. Check out the shiny new mini map. Izzy and Monty had the largest territories...for now...

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820 AD: Capital view, turned the rest of Floods to Cottages, see how nicely the GLH is paying off with those awsome trade routes.

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860 AD: Task force to capture Brennus' nice capital, he had iron under center tile, no wonder was tough to fight him early on...

After I caputrued his capital, I decided to Vassal him at the first opportunity.
He still has quite capable forces and a few cities, I thought he would be a nice buffer shielding me away from Roosy and Monty while I turn my focus on Izzy(the score leader).

Izzy has very nice real estate and was by then a very powerful civ. She could get to Guild any time now and I would be in trouble if she came with massive upgraded Conquistors(+50% vs Melee).

I gifted Brennus all latest techs and left defenders in his cities to help him in case he was attacked by Monty.

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940 AD: Got to Enonomics first, check all AI capitals for best mission. Istanbul was winner with 2300 Gold. Land route is too dangerous for my Merchant, so sent him there via a strong boat.

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940 AD: Changed civics back to Slavery as the newly captured cities need to be whipped hard. Also to Free Market + OR. 2 turns Anachy.

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1070 AD: Trade mission success, 2300gold richer!

Note that a few turns earlier, Roosy had suprisingly declared on Brennus and me, guess he was running out of room. Brennus lost 1 small city, but able to held the rest, I sent Grenediers to Brennus capital to help knock out a few Roosy's knights and Mace. But I did no have much to spare as I was preping for Izzy.

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1070 AD: I had a small forces of Macemen, pikes and trebs waiting to upgrade to Cannon a few turns later. So I walled up my cities bordering Izzy and declaired on her. Thought it was better to do that than being suprised by her later. You know it, she came with waves of Conquistors, wasted 8 of my maces, 6 pikes and her losses were also high. Conquistors were very powerful, she had stables so all of them were Combat II or Shock. So I sat on my A__ and built pikes like crazy, at least I could reinforce very quickly. She ran out of steam very quickly and soon I had Grenediers.

I was afraid Monty would do something stupid at this crucial moment, I could not afford him invading Brennus, so I preemptively bribed him to attack Roosy AND Izzy with Education. So now every powerful civ is involved in WWI, the balance of power had been neutralized for now.

I went through a building/reseaching phase(lots of whipping at the smaller and newly captured cities) while defending myself and my vassal; build many happy buildings to counter future War weariness. Next goal is get to Rifling, mass (might draft) Rifles, Grenadiers+Cannons and shovel it up Izzy...

 

[futurehermit]

I agree with people who are saying Incas + amazing start (I would add + Pangaea, I consider it easier than continents by a fair margin) diminishes somewhat the "immortalness" of this game (stone in capital is INSANELY rare).

However, I have to say that nonetheless this has been a well-played game and very educational overall.

Next game go for Ottoman or China or someone like that so we can't nitpick like this

 

[ABigCivFan]

Thanks futurehermit. I dont really mind the nitpicking, because that really has nothing to do with the intention of this thread. I am glad many people found that it was a good read and somewhat educational.

This is not about what difficulty we play or even winning or losing, it is all about gaining experience to analyzing things better with given information, and it is about having fun by challenging yourself.

I think many of us have become better at making good decisions playing this game, and that i hope this is a good side-effect of investing so many hours in this game that it actually does something to improve our Real life.

 

[Heeringas]

Ye civ and chess are really good for learning strategig thinking... But at least civ playing has bad influence on relationships
Some of girlfriends just don´t understand how can a man play the game all night long....

 

[Heeringas]

By the way, how did you check how much money you can have from trade road? Which key you have to press?

 

[r_rolo1]

Ye civ and chess are really good for learning strategig thinking... But at least civ playing has bad influence on relationships
Some of girlfriends just don´t understand how can a man play the game all night long....

Yeah, but they like the presents we can give them because of our improved cash management, don't they?

I'm really eager to see the rest of the game. Betting on mass draft from globe city ....

 

[Boppy]

I think this thread is excellent ABigCivFan.

I'm really learning from your posts about how you prioritise what is most important for a city to do at any time and how that a city can easily change it's function at a later date.

I'm generally a Monarch level player but even with a good start with Inca I struggle to make as good as decisions as you have regarding which wonders to build for example. Looking at your screenshots you really dedicate a city to a particular purpose which is probably where I let myself down with my games. I generally don't go as far as say purposely starving a city to build something quickly.

Keep up the good work

P.S. I'm also wondering what the key-combo is to find the trade mission amount out from a distance. I think it was mentioned in one of the ALC or Aelf's games but I can't find it.

 

[ABigCivFan]

By the way, how did you check how much money you can have from trade road? Which key you have to press?

Click on your Merchant, hold down Shift key, then Right click on the destination city, then hover your mouse on top of the "Conduct Trade Mission" icon.

Make sure you click "Cancel Trade Mission" icon while holding down the shift key so your merchant won't move.

 

[ABigCivFan]

I think this thread is excellent ABigCivFan.
I'm really learning from your posts about how you prioritise what is most important for a city to do at any time and how that a city can easily change it's function at a later date.

Thank you Boppy. Yes, i take my time each turn and think about what I should do next (research, build, check F4 for trading opportunities).

I heavily emphasize city specialization. For instance, You saw the research capability of the capital; for military production, I put the HE/Military Academy/1 Mil Instructor in my 2nd city which had a base 22 capability.

Combine that with Forge+HE+MA=+175% which gives about 60/turn. Since the research was fast(education in early ADs), that city was capable of building a 2 promotion Pike/H. Archer/Crossbow/LongBow Every single turn in the early ADs. That helped a lot with both offense and defense given that flexibility.

I missed one detail in early posts that I built the Castle in capital as soon as I got Engineering for that extra trade route.

I left a lot of details out in the later posts and only showed the key decisions which i deemed important, but if you have any questions, I am happy to answer and provide additional saved games.

 

[LlamaCat]

Dude, something I am just not getting: how the heck do you get 119 hammers in Cuzco? "Here is Wot in action help building the Colossus(119 hammers with copper bonus!)."

You have base 10 hammers from the stone and 2 mines. Double production with copper, plus other building bonuses, plus maybe some overflow from another build. But how did that get as high as 119?? If I didn't see it I wouldn't believe it. Can't view the saves right now, but I would love to see that math because that has to be some kind of record for hammer bonuses...

edit: ok I see you also have 2 priest specialists (+4 hammers?) ... but I'm still not seeing how it could be that high.

 

[CivSetä]

^^ Colossus is just started - there is probably some overflow from previous build + possible whip and/or chop.

 

[ABigCivFan]

Must be the overflow from building the Angkor Wat. With Stone bonue, the overflow could be large, compounded with the copper bonus for the current Colossus build. Also notice that it said it would take 4 turns to finish colossus which indicated the true hammer count was around 14*3.25(Copper+Forge+Beauracracy+Industrious)=46. Yes it is a little misleading. I will make an edit to clarify.

 

[LlamaCat]

OK I totally forgot about Beauracracy + Industrious trait (that's another 150%right there, I think). But even with Forge and other buildings and double speed with Copper, I was thinking the overflow could only be so high, since your base hammers are not really that much (this is really a food city). That's just an impressive one-turn output of hammers for a city like this.