ABigCivFan
Emperor
Here is a save @950BC
An In-depth Analysis of the Thought Process in Playing an Immortal Game
- Thread starter ABigCivFan
- Start date
aelf
Ashen One
It's Quechua. Grr... 
Anyway, why didn't you whip unhappy Cuzco?
Anyway, why didn't you whip unhappy Cuzco?
ABigCivFan
Emperor
It's Quechua. Grr...
Anyway, why didn't you whip unhappy Cuzco?
I suck at spelling
No slavery yet, ps if I get pyramid, they will be instantly happy and get their lasy butt to work
I really minimized # of turns lost to civic changes in this game, will show you when I made what i was thought necessary changes.
r_rolo1
King of myself
Now that is a text book opening! The only thing missing here is Oracle -> Monarchy but probably is too late for that ( edit: just noticed that Brennus has Monarchy. Hit him hard and take monarchy as a spoil of war ). Kick Brennus b*tt before quechuas lifespan is over ( after that they could be nice "happy warrior") and grab his holy city before he gots any countermeasure ( he as any kind of metal or horses? Is he near of Feudalism? ). Besides tht your plan is very nice.
ABigCivFan
Emperor
I had no Marble, and religious techs were expensive, that is why i only planned on stone based wonders. Also if the Henge
gives a GP, i could always bulb Theology or COL. With my current openning:* Food rich capital+GLH+Representation(scientists)+Financial+GL(potentially)+Bureaucracy+Academy+Harbor+library+Castle+University+Obervatory+Oxford
will give me a superior research capacity over AIs, and you will see this combo in action very soon. Note I had open border with every non-hostile civ so the capital should get the best 3 trade routes early.
Besides, going for Stone wonders means if I do not get them, i would get a much richer gold payment with the stone bonus.
Going for Oracle could potentially cost me the Pyrimid or GLH or both which I thougt would be sub-optimal.
r_rolo1
King of myself
That was what I though right after I wrote that ( that is why I inserted that little remark about riping Monarchy from Brennus). I was not critizising you I was congratulating you ( If I could do such a immaculate opening....).
I like your plan. Your capitol will soon became a tech and financial monster. The only thing you still need is getting monarchy for HR. When your capitol reach size 12 or 13, no one will stand in your way. And if you continue playing as well as you have done so far, this will be a text book game.
I like your plan. Your capitol will soon became a tech and financial monster. The only thing you still need is getting monarchy for HR. When your capitol reach size 12 or 13, no one will stand in your way. And if you continue playing as well as you have done so far, this will be a text book game.
ABigCivFan
Emperor
Thanks r_rolo1 for your kind and encouraging words. 
Yes, your comment is exactly what this thead needs, it is by no means that my plan is the "right plan", the whole purpose of this is giving new players a idea of how to play a civ to its strength, how to maximize the opening resources, how to expand while keep research up, and how to react to complex and unpredictable CIV4 situiations. I thought by offering the thought process and discussions on different strategies is only necessary to make it better.
For isntance, I did not cottage spam, nor did I go super aggressive with Quechua early since i want to get to Alphabet super early, and build a strong tech/production/growth infrustructure so I can deal with all 6 AIs in the future.
At normal speed, AIs tend to have very strong military, you could lose the game even with a small tech lead+land lag OR a large land lead+a small tech lag.
Edit: I almost never use HR to combat unhappiness, in most my games, we reach calendar very early, and i am able to trade for all the resources to keep my citizens happy. In this particular game, no HR at all since I got the Pyramid and went straight to Representation.
I trade immeditely when I see AI has some res for offer, since they might be only available for trade for only a few turns, grab it now! For instance if I see Roosy has silk, I will trading away my only source of fish for that silk, as long as I know I can claim another source of fish within some turns. Also If i do not need a happy res right away, i will gladly trade it away for a health res that i need now.
Yes, your comment is exactly what this thead needs, it is by no means that my plan is the "right plan", the whole purpose of this is giving new players a idea of how to play a civ to its strength, how to maximize the opening resources, how to expand while keep research up, and how to react to complex and unpredictable CIV4 situiations. I thought by offering the thought process and discussions on different strategies is only necessary to make it better.
For isntance, I did not cottage spam, nor did I go super aggressive with Quechua early since i want to get to Alphabet super early, and build a strong tech/production/growth infrustructure so I can deal with all 6 AIs in the future.
At normal speed, AIs tend to have very strong military, you could lose the game even with a small tech lead+land lag OR a large land lead+a small tech lag.
Edit: I almost never use HR to combat unhappiness, in most my games, we reach calendar very early, and i am able to trade for all the
resources to keep my citizens happy. In this particular game, no HR at all since I got the Pyramid and went straight to Representation. I trade immeditely when I see AI has some res for offer, since they might be only available for trade for only a few turns, grab it now! For instance if I see Roosy has silk, I will trading away my only source of fish for that silk, as long as I know I can claim another source of fish within some turns. Also If i do not need a happy res right away, i will gladly trade it away for a health res that i need now.
itsnotmeee
Warlord
What a "wonderful" freak! You got such a great start. Stone, copper, and horse, all within reach. Not to mention the gold mine and a ton of floodplains for a Fin leader. Now, all you have to hope for is that your Quchas can finish Brennus. Just one question, did copper appear before you researched BW?
because you said you didn't have Slavery to whip the unhappies.
Edit: Nevermind! Went a few posts back and saw BW was being researched. So, I guess you didn't switch to Slavery yet.
You got such a great start. Stone, copper, and horse, all within reach. Not to mention the gold mine and a ton of floodplains for a Fin leader. Now, all you have to hope for is that your Quchas can finish Brennus. Just one question, did copper appear before you researched BW? because you said you didn't have Slavery to whip the unhappies.Edit: Nevermind! Went a few posts back and saw BW was being researched. So, I guess you didn't switch to Slavery yet.
r_rolo1
King of myself
I've been playing the Lonely Hearths Club game and that it is showing... ( in isolated starts HR is very useful, because of the smaller number of resourses in the island ( and not having stone most of the times, so go to Pyramids is risky) and less oportunities of resourses trade ( even after contact: AI normally don't reassign their deals and you receive the scraps),so the only fool proof option to have big cities ( you have to, because you don't have space for a lot of cities, and even if you have, the 
to build the settlers are coming from your pocket, not from the AI one) is HR.
Health is a entirely diferent matter... Makes you love Enviromentalism ).
resourses in the island ( and not having stone most of the times, so go to Pyramids is risky) and less oportunities of resourses trade ( even after contact: AI normally don't reassign their deals and you receive the scraps),so the only fool proof option to have big cities ( you have to, because you don't have space for a lot of cities, and even if you have, the to build the settlers are coming from your pocket, not from the AI one) is HR.Health is a entirely diferent matter... Makes you love Enviromentalism ).
Lord Chambers
Emperor
- Joined
- Nov 23, 2001
- Messages
- 1,004
Questions:
I'm suprised you haven't explored more. In my games I usually scout a wider swath of land before returning to my cities. You don't have much more than one city radius' revealed, outside of your territory. Do you make a point to return your warriors back earlier since you suspect an attack will come, or do you just not value revealing more land than you can imagine settling?
Why didn't you built a cottage or two in your third city? I ask because you made a point about how you didn't cottage spam, but don't figure between your three workers you couldn't find time for one.
You've farmed two floodplains in the capital. What's the plan related to that? It's already at a happiness cap, and posting scientist specialists is a little away. Considering this, I'd hold on the farms and build either a cottage in the capital or third city. Or both.
Between all your Quechuas you have a single city raider promotion. Is that because all the raiders died in the attack, or do you have some other mindset regarding promotions?
What's next for the Quechuas? Will you head into the mist and try to find Brennus's next city, or make peace?
I noticed also you are still at war with Isabella. Is that to avoid a diplomatic penalty later? I usually make peace as soon as possible since having an enemy I'm not invading seems like such a liability, but in hindsight this is probably a better way to play it.
I'm eagerly waiting for the next installment. You've already done several things differently than my first inclination, which shows I have a lot to learn if I'm going to step from Emperor to Immortal.
I'm suprised you haven't explored more. In my games I usually scout a wider swath of land before returning to my cities. You don't have much more than one city radius' revealed, outside of your territory. Do you make a point to return your warriors back earlier since you suspect an attack will come, or do you just not value revealing more land than you can imagine settling?
Why didn't you built a cottage or two in your third city? I ask because you made a point about how you didn't cottage spam, but don't figure between your three workers you couldn't find time for one.
You've farmed two floodplains in the capital. What's the plan related to that? It's already at a happiness cap, and posting scientist specialists is a little away. Considering this, I'd hold on the farms and build either a cottage in the capital or third city. Or both.
Between all your Quechuas you have a single city raider promotion. Is that because all the raiders died in the attack, or do you have some other mindset regarding promotions?
What's next for the Quechuas? Will you head into the mist and try to find Brennus's next city, or make peace?
I noticed also you are still at war with Isabella. Is that to avoid a diplomatic penalty later? I usually make peace as soon as possible since having an enemy I'm not invading seems like such a liability, but in hindsight this is probably a better way to play it.
I'm eagerly waiting for the next installment. You've already done several things differently than my first inclination, which shows I have a lot to learn if I'm going to step from Emperor to Immortal.
ABigCivFan
Emperor
950BC: War against Celts. Sent in my Quechuas against Celts, note the cover and shock promotions they have(gained from skimisher with Spain). The early wars are good in a big part due to it allows you to get veteran units which you can upgrade later, and the GG points.
Capitured that nice size 11 city, gained pig, wheat(great help to combat my health problem) & wine. Only 6 turns till Alphabet, so no big set back at research. Also looted 145 gold!
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950BC: Pyramid built in capital, switch to Representation+Slavery, only 1 turn Anachy.
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925BC: Great Wall helped a lot, first GG born for killing a celtic archer im my territory. Settled in Tiwanaku as instructor, nice he gives 3 beakers too. Tiwanaku has 20+ hammer potential soon, so I planed it for:
* 1 instructor + HE + Military Academy + WP(potentially)
as the back bone of my war machine.
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850BC: Brennus counter attacks with Gallic worrior + spearman. Apparently he has Metal. Good I had some gold, fortified my Quechuas and upgraded one reinforcing one to Axeman. Note the captured city is not hook up yet so I could not upgrade those shock Quechuas lol. Lost 4 Quechuas but held the city with that single Axeman. Built more Axeman to reinforce.
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825BC: Tech Trading plan. Researched Alphebat, here is the trading potentials.
Plan: Math is the most valuable, followed by Iron Working. Only Won Kong has math, so get Math from WonKong and Iron working from Mehmed.
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825BC: Problem, WonKong won't trade Math with Alphabet, maybe he is half done researching it! So I checked that Mehmad has Meditation which Won Kong does not have. So If I could get Iron Working+Meditation from Mehmed, perhaps next turn I could get Math from WK for Alphabet+Meditation. (greedy AIs..)
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800BC: The cross-trade plan worked! WK took that deal the next turn.
At the same turn, I trade Iron working+Meditation for 3 techs from Aztec. He is not next door neighbor, fairly safe for now.
So got 6 techs from Alphabet, and only traded Alphabet to 2 AIs.
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725BC: I whipped Terrance, liberary in capital, ran 2 scientists ASAP. with the 4 GP pts of Henge+GLH 6 scientist GP, luckily got a GS from it! Used him immedietly on an Academy. This academy trimmed my subsequent research by 1 turn/tech, great compounding factor.
Notice that Iron poped near the 5th city, whale is within its fat cross as well.
725BC globe view: note Literature is only 2 turns away
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525BC: My capital is such a research monster, I was able to research COL first and found Taoism! Stopped all wars to focus on GL, liberary and court houses.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/101615/525BC_COL.JPG
Same year, met Roosy, I gifted him some cheap tech and turned him pleased. I planned to keep him happy and along with Mehmed my best trading buddies.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/101615/525BC_Gift_Roosy.JPG
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400BC: Capital view. I turned 2 flood plains to Cottages since it is growing fast enought to keep up with my upping happy cap with all the res trades. Note it is 12 turns to GL. No AIs had Literature at this point yet.
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325BC: Marble Trade. Monty has 2 marbles and willing to trade! Since I have no immedite stone wonders to build, I was happy to trade my only stone to him for marble. He is dumb enough to not know I would build GL/NE/HE twice faster just when I needed. He did build the Chicken Pizza with my stone though.. lol...
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300BC: GL built, timed perfect with 1 turn away from Civil Service. Not bad score wise.
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275BC: Civil Service researched, change civic to Bereaucracy+Organized Religion 1 turn Anachy.
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175BC: Started a war with Brennus just to get a Level 4 unit to open up Heroic Epic in my Prod city. And here he is. Still having marble, built the HE in 6 turns.
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More to come soon..
Capitured that nice size 11 city, gained pig, wheat(great help to combat my health problem) & wine. Only 6 turns till Alphabet, so no big set back at research. Also looted 145 gold!
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950BC: Pyramid built in capital, switch to Representation+Slavery, only 1 turn Anachy.
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925BC: Great Wall helped a lot, first GG born for killing a celtic archer im my territory. Settled in Tiwanaku as instructor, nice he gives 3 beakers too. Tiwanaku has 20+ hammer potential soon, so I planed it for:
* 1 instructor + HE + Military Academy + WP(potentially)
as the back bone of my war machine.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
850BC: Brennus counter attacks with Gallic worrior + spearman. Apparently he has Metal. Good I had some gold, fortified my Quechuas and upgraded one reinforcing one to Axeman. Note the captured city is not hook up yet so I could not upgrade those shock Quechuas lol. Lost 4 Quechuas but held the city with that single Axeman. Built more Axeman to reinforce.
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825BC: Tech Trading plan. Researched Alphebat, here is the trading potentials.
Plan: Math is the most valuable, followed by Iron Working. Only Won Kong has math, so get Math from WonKong and Iron working from Mehmed.
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825BC: Problem, WonKong won't trade Math with Alphabet, maybe he is half done researching it! So I checked that Mehmad has Meditation which Won Kong does not have. So If I could get Iron Working+Meditation from Mehmed, perhaps next turn I could get Math from WK for Alphabet+Meditation. (greedy AIs..)
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800BC: The cross-trade plan worked! WK took that deal the next turn.
At the same turn, I trade Iron working+Meditation for 3 techs from Aztec. He is not next door neighbor, fairly safe for now.
So got 6 techs from Alphabet, and only traded Alphabet to 2 AIs.
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725BC: I whipped Terrance, liberary in capital, ran 2 scientists ASAP. with the 4 GP pts of Henge+GLH 6 scientist GP, luckily got a GS from it! Used him immedietly on an Academy. This academy trimmed my subsequent research by 1 turn/tech, great compounding factor.
Notice that Iron poped near the 5th city, whale is within its fat cross as well.
725BC globe view: note Literature is only 2 turns away
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525BC: My capital is such a research monster, I was able to research COL first and found Taoism! Stopped all wars to focus on GL, liberary and court houses.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/101615/525BC_COL.JPG
Same year, met Roosy, I gifted him some cheap tech and turned him pleased. I planned to keep him happy and along with Mehmed my best trading buddies.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/101615/525BC_Gift_Roosy.JPG
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
400BC: Capital view. I turned 2 flood plains to Cottages since it is growing fast enought to keep up with my upping happy cap with all the res trades. Note it is 12 turns to GL. No AIs had Literature at this point yet.
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325BC: Marble Trade. Monty has 2 marbles and willing to trade! Since I have no immedite stone wonders to build, I was happy to trade my only stone to him for marble. He is dumb enough to not know I would build GL/NE/HE twice faster just when I needed. He did build the Chicken Pizza with my stone though.. lol...
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300BC: GL built, timed perfect with 1 turn away from Civil Service. Not bad score wise.
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275BC: Civil Service researched, change civic to Bereaucracy+Organized Religion 1 turn Anachy.
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175BC: Started a war with Brennus just to get a Level 4 unit to open up Heroic Epic in my Prod city. And here he is. Still having marble, built the HE in 6 turns.
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More to come soon..
ABigCivFan
Emperor
75BC: Globle view, researching Metal casting and hope to get Colossus in Capital. Note in this pic, I had light bulbed Philosophy with my second GS. it went to the left most city(taken from babarians). I had spread Taoism to most cities to take advantage of Organized religion.
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You think that my empire should be in pretty good shape by now? look here:
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50AD: Got a GP from capital, used him on Taoism Shrine for cash, here is the capital view
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You think that my empire should be in pretty good shape by now? look here:
Spoiler :
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50AD: Got a GP from capital, used him on Taoism Shrine for cash, here is the capital view
ABigCivFan
Emperor
I normally explore more with mounted units. But in this game my priorities are those early wonders(race against time), so not much spare for exploring units. Also I revealed enough for 3 nice cites including a GP farm(capital), production city(2nd), and mixed city (3rd). And I thought that was sufficient for the time being. And yes, i return worriers quickly to guard new cities. If the war comes later, I would sign Open borders, scout enermy before attack, not this time cause the Quechua power.
Early on pop growth is #1 since I need to work those hills and low
tiles to wage war. The cottages did come later if you follow the new developments.Right after Representation, my happy cap lifted, i did cottage 2 floods when it was near the cap again, see pic sets.
Quechuss have short life span, Cover gives 25% against archers but CRI only gives 20% against units IN city. Since most foes were archers, cover promo was better. Also need some shock to hedge against enemy melee units.
Depends on how strong he counters me, I started to build Axe after initial contact with Brennus since he came with Gallic and Axes. Will keep some Quechus since they can still mop against some arhcers.
She only sent archers against me, I allow her units enter my territory so I use her to milk my GG points (Great Wall effect again). I could make peace with her anytime if she shows up with stronger forces.
I have lots of saves, just let me know if you want to see some interim saves to compare with your expectations.
itsnotmeee
Warlord
148 beakers? All I can say is wow.
ABigCivFan
Emperor
I suggest you read my posts and play this game for yourself before making such a naive statement.
ABigCivFan
Emperor
Take a look at the capital @1160AD just after Oxford. This is what i was talking about putting the right stuff into your capital in the begining. I got those gold from my FREE GM(got Economics first) trade mission. He took a boat to Ottoman capital for a 2300
trip. I will use this gold to upgrade all my trebs to cannons. You will see them soon.
Spoiler :
sunrise089
Not that good
- Joined
- May 24, 2006
- Messages
- 798
ABigCivFan - First of all, thanks for the thread. It's a nice well written example of how a good player can do well on a very high level, and an example of an awesome start. That said, I think Mutineer makes a good point. Not to disparage your playing ability (I can't eek out a Warlords Emperor win yet myself) this particular game is not indicative of general Immortal strategy. That doesn't mean it isn't interesting or informative, but as a general tool to learn Immortal, it falls short.
There are a few things you have going for you that few other Immortal games would have:
-Inca's UU: no need to hurry and get axes out, no need to worry about AIs stealing your ideal spots, ability to grab an AI city with very little effort very very early. No other Civ has such an advantage.
-Financial+Floodplains+Gold: How often do you really see this...not much. Your tech rate and ability to expand due to this amount of cash is basically unreal.
-Industrious+Stone+3 food resources: Your early production has allowed you to grab many more early wonders without sacrificing expansion or tech rate.
Initially I did think Muti went too far in calling this a Monarch level game (I was thinking Emperor), but the combination of the AMAZING start plus the powerful Civ does mean this is possibly 2 levels easier than Immortal would indicate.
Now all of that said - I think you played what you were given perfectly, much better than I would have. The tech and resource trades are particularly good, as well as the boldness of going to war to grab workers and generate a GG. Still, I doubt this opening could be equaled in a hundred starts with random civ enabled - so a typical Immortal game guide, this is not.
There are a few things you have going for you that few other Immortal games would have:
-Inca's UU: no need to hurry and get axes out, no need to worry about AIs stealing your ideal spots, ability to grab an AI city with very little effort very very early. No other Civ has such an advantage.
-Financial+Floodplains+Gold: How often do you really see this...not much. Your tech rate and ability to expand due to this amount of cash is basically unreal.
-Industrious+Stone+3 food resources: Your early production has allowed you to grab many more early wonders without sacrificing expansion or tech rate.
Initially I did think Muti went too far in calling this a Monarch level game (I was thinking Emperor), but the combination of the AMAZING start plus the powerful Civ does mean this is possibly 2 levels easier than Immortal would indicate.
Now all of that said - I think you played what you were given perfectly, much better than I would have. The tech and resource trades are particularly good, as well as the boldness of going to war to grab workers and generate a GG. Still, I doubt this opening could be equaled in a hundred starts with random civ enabled - so a typical Immortal game guide, this is not.
obsolete
Deity
I'm very puzzled at why you build the GW. If there is one thing I"ve heard time and time again from Immortal level players, it's
Don't go after defensive techs
Don't go after defensive wonders
Don't go after defensive units
To play defensively = admitting defeat on the elite levels.
You build the GW. Now let me ask you... why?
With the hammers you invested, wouldn't it be best to make units and have something worth mobilizing? You are going to need them eventually. Also, if the AI next to you builds the GW, so much the better. Let THEM waste hammers on it instead of attack units. Then you can take their cities AND GW so much the easier.
Anyhow, maybe I'm underestimating your use for GW. But surely you don't need it for barb protection either with your early UV. That whole military general bonus thing I have heard before, though that brings up another question.
I have heard two stories regarding that. The one is that any time an attack happens inside your TERRITORY (being any territory) you gain the bonus. The other story i've been hearing is that you only get the bonus by attacks inside your GREAT WALL. This is why the wall never shifts, so you can see exactly which squares count and which dont.
I wonder if there are firaxis coders around to verify for 100% on this. I am rather just new to Warlords so all I can do for now is take someone's word for it.
Anyhow, considering your fluke starting positing, and your leader bonuses, I may have also been suckered into building the shiny wonders, just because playing sub-optimally here isn't that brittle a strategy.
Don't go after defensive techs
Don't go after defensive wonders
Don't go after defensive units
To play defensively = admitting defeat on the elite levels.
You build the GW. Now let me ask you... why?
With the hammers you invested, wouldn't it be best to make units and have something worth mobilizing? You are going to need them eventually. Also, if the AI next to you builds the GW, so much the better. Let THEM waste hammers on it instead of attack units. Then you can take their cities AND GW so much the easier.
Anyhow, maybe I'm underestimating your use for GW. But surely you don't need it for barb protection either with your early UV. That whole military general bonus thing I have heard before, though that brings up another question.
I have heard two stories regarding that. The one is that any time an attack happens inside your TERRITORY (being any territory) you gain the bonus. The other story i've been hearing is that you only get the bonus by attacks inside your GREAT WALL. This is why the wall never shifts, so you can see exactly which squares count and which dont.
I wonder if there are firaxis coders around to verify for 100% on this. I am rather just new to Warlords so all I can do for now is take someone's word for it.
Anyhow, considering your fluke starting positing, and your leader bonuses, I may have also been suckered into building the shiny wonders, just because playing sub-optimally here isn't that brittle a strategy.
obsolete
Deity
BTW, I noticed you settled right ontop of your stone resource! That will cut down on a lot of free hammers from a quarry. I assume you figured time was of such the essense that you weren't going to bother with a stone quarry?
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