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An update from Firaxis about the Colonization patch

Discussion in 'Civ4Col - General Discussions' started by PeteMurray, Feb 13, 2009.

  1. Krupo

    Krupo Old-time newsgrouper

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    I was incredibly disappointed to find out there was no intervention force... man, that bummed me out in the first game I played. I hit up the forums after loading up the game in Steam - there was a big pause before it kicked on so I wondered, "hmm, is it patching?" No... but I'm glad to know I successfully sensed it. ;)
     
  2. heihojin

    heihojin Prince

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    No PBEM, no purchase.
     
  3. Sarek

    Sarek Logical

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    Actually, cutting a cheque to Dale and "patching" with his "mod" might be a good starting point? Then adding something else to make it their own... :lol:
    Seriously, can't wait to see the Firaxipatch.
     
  4. ExtraCrispy

    ExtraCrispy Warlord

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    ^Yea I'd love to see AoD2 made as the official patch. Perhaps they could make dale their lead designer?
     
  5. PiMan

    PiMan Emperor

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    AoD2 would stay a mod. Patchmod would be the patch.
     
  6. ExtraCrispy

    ExtraCrispy Warlord

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    But that would leave out the Buccaneers.....
     
  7. player1 fanatic

    player1 fanatic Fanatic

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    Thanks!


    When we are at this. What about issue with buying units directly from the king (at 50% discount). It increases greatly expeditionary force, by adding "virtual" libery bells to "the pool" for increaseing expeditionary force in amount equal to what is payed for unit. For example, buying Veteran Solider from the king at 900gp (saving extra 900gp you would need if buyuing from europe screen) adds 900 "virtual" bells for purposes of king's army increase. That's a LOT. For example, buying total 6 veterans and 6 cannons equals to 8100 "virtual" bells added for king's army increase (it's also 8100gp of money saved). Doesn't seem like resonable exchange.

    In current form, that option is more of a trap then something useful.


    P.S.
    There is also bug releated to this. If player produces no liberty bells, expeditionary force won't be increased from this. But the moment you start producting your own bells, all those "virtual" bells from buying units will be added at once, triggering king army increases for several turns (even dozen or more).

    That's why this option is trap. When buying units from king at first, before getting your own liberty bells, you would not realize how harmful it is, and that it increases king's own army.
     
  8. prolefeed

    prolefeed Chieftain

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    They could try making the AI less of an AS (Artificial Stupidity). The AI has no sense of strategy or tactics. For example, when at war with a European power, their ships carrying soldiers will cruise right by an undefended ancient treasure of yours, and not hop off and capture it. If you wipe out all the units of a European power, they will keep on respawning a caravel with troops over and over again from the exact same spot, and keep on trying to colonize the exact same spot. You'd think that with an entire map to colonize, they'd pick a different spot to reenter and colonize each time, far away from the last spot that failed.

    And so on. Hasn't anyone writing the code for this game tried playing a game or two and seeing the dumb strategy being employed?

    Oh, and the governor often makes some strange choices for where to place units within a city. It should be incredibly obvious that specialized units should have a high preference for squares that utilize their special talents, in particular squares with special resources. But, for example, I've seen Expert Fishermen on a square with fish being kicked off that square and replaced by some ordinary unit by the governor. I've seen Expert Silver Miners added to a city and not displacing lesser units working a mined mountain with double silver.

    Every iteration of CIV, in fact, seems to have incompetent governors and pioneer/worker automation, though Colonization seems to be somewhat better at it than previous versions. And the recommended squares for placing cities, though oftentimes inspired, still don't always seem to look ahead. For example, in the game I'm playing, my starting city was placed on a tundra square with four (4!) fish resources to work, and the AI missed this spot, picking much lesser spots nearby.

    Have someone at Fireaxis test this stuff, and whenever the AI does something asinine, see if the code can be tweaked to prevent such stupidity. Please. It's annoying to see the same bugs repeated in version after version of Civ.
     
  9. ExtraCrispy

    ExtraCrispy Warlord

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    If you're using Dale's AoD, and you're purusing a non independce victory, this is the best way to get troops.

    But I agree, It's a cheap trap... I have no reason to contact the King. At least let me insult him a bit!
     
  10. Aardvark Fury

    Aardvark Fury Chieftain

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    This may be too much for a patch but, for what it's worth, I request:

    - Cannon that can fire at passing ships from fortress upgrades. Addition of a "Heated Shot" promotion for cannon?
    - Foreign kings who have cities in the New World (after WoI with colonies) are contactable during diplomacy as per normal civilizations
    - Countering, and use of, Privateers by the AI
    - Random (or historical) declarations of war against other European colonies prior to WoI, with attendant free or discounted troops offered by king
    - Intervention of warships and troops by a European third party on the side of the rebels during WoI
    - An American and Indian War scenario
     
  11. jenks

    jenks Prince

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    Yeah ... I too was a little disappointed that the issues with the Founding Fathers are not addressed, whether that be
    1) the order they appear in game, so that bonuses are relevant to the game-era
    2) addressing the balance so that all can be useful in game, and there are not complete 'must-have' FF's and 'avoid' FF's
    3) or matching their actual historical relevance to the bonuses they give, i.e. Hernan Cortes gives you a free missionary (not likely!)

    For me the Founding Fathers of Col are the 'tech-tree' of Civ. You wouldn't discover electricity in 2000 BC, nor would it give you a free Militia, or +100% food in all cities.

    Having said that .... its good to hear that Firaxis still have some interest in improving the game! :p
     
  12. Bob the Barbari

    Bob the Barbari Warlord

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    What about game speed balance? I found it very problematic to get to 90% tax rate with Adriaen van der Donck! around turn 600 on marathon game (not to mention 99% with Simon Bolivar). And the exploration founding fathers are practically unachievable except for the first few, even with Dale's patch.

    And for the WOI John Adams asked me to declare war on English King, but it would be permanent, not to mention the fact that I would be helping him win. It should be diseabled. Furthermore aforementioned king founded London and Amsterdam (more than a hundred years after New Amsterdam had been founded), I was able to enter his colonies and the trade button was available although it did not work (unfortunatelly). I was getting information about prices changing in England (as Netherlands), that were nothing more than a disruption.

    As for combat: Simon Bolivar's starting Veteran Soldier was enough to completely defeat Incas (7 cities), while it has something to do with realism it is also a proof of natives unability to successfully counter a threat - their warriors only attacked my soldier twice. As Adriaen van der Donck I was able to defeat Jose de San martin with only a Veteran Soldier and an experienced Dragoon/Seasoned Scout because he traded most of his guns to the natives and put the rest in one colony, while his two Veteran Soldiers and Scout with Veteran IV were working as fishermen in another colony (an example just to show some of the problems).

    Don't get me wrong, I'm not a whiner. I actually think It's a great game and was having a lot of fun with it, but I believe that it needs a lot of polishing.
     
  13. Öjevind Lång

    Öjevind Lång Deity

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    Why not the Fountain of Youth, with that wonderful melody from the original Col game? And the same panel as in the original game, though of course improved in graphic quality. They could weaken the Fountain's effect so you only get perhaps three free colonists, but they should retain the player's ability to choose between them. That was such fun. And reintroduce "You have discovered the Pacific"! It was pointless gamewise but added to the general sense of freshness, of fun. In fact, what is sadly lacking in Col II *is* the sense of fun of the original game - the exuberance.

    In the same spirit, on could introduce a search for the North-West Passage, make it really tough work and give a substantial reward if your efforts pay off. (There may not be a North-West Passage; one would only know when one knows, for any individual game.)

    I would like to see more time playing as a colonist instead of grimly preparing for independence from Day One, which decreases the enjoyment of the game.

    MAKE THE MAPS LARGER! "Huge map" now simply means more ocean but pretty much the same land mass... And of course, make it possible to sail from the east to the west, except if the random map generator decides that you can't.

    I'd like more victory options, including negotiating for your independence.That could be achieved through skilfully building up a viable new nation (with an actual congress in one of your cities), making some of one's decisions dependent on the approval of congress, which could evolve in character due to your decisions and your economic structure, negotiating trade agreements with the king or stadtholder, compromising on taxes after a certain level has been reached, accommodating him in his wars with the other colonizing powers... One could perhaps even agree on fewer and smaller tax increases in return for placing some of one's troops at the king's disposal for a set space of time. After all, at least with regard to the birth of the United States, the basic quarrel was that George III thought (not entirely without reason) that the colonists didn't burden their proper share for their defence.

    Of course, the king should take an interest in what happens in the new world. He should occasionally force you to go to war with one of the other colonizing powers, giving you some military units and some money (less of both as the game proceeds) to do so, as in Col I.

    And why not an option to play on after independence and reach some set goal such as controlling a given percentage of the New World with a certain (high) degree of development? Of course, they should also remove the remaining ships from the REF which still infest the map after you gain your independence, just as they did in the original game. I can't believe they didn't do something about that.

    And I take it that if you trade with Europe (which IMO should not be contingent on choosing any particular brand of constitution), the goods that the king forbade trade in aren't still off the list? That doesn't make any kind of sense.

    I'd like to see a return of the feature where someone learns his trade by staying on the job long enough.

    Making the kings look just a little less nasty would, in my opinion, improve the game. I admit it's a minor point, but in the original Col, the king was annoying, but at the same time he made you laugh. The present kings are over the top, especially poor Willem. And that sucking kiss sound grows old really fast.

    Another possible nitpick: improve the Colonizopedia, which at present is often very unhelpful. Very badly organised. One might also remove some of the more ignorant, Europhobic and redneckian comments in it, such as the neo-Conservative description of British "socialism" before Saint Thatcher saved Britain, name-calling or claiming that how to produce Men-of-War "is a secret kept from the colonists". The colonies simply did not have the facilities needed to build men-of-war because before declaring independence, they relied on the navy of the mother country for protection.

    Imagewise, specific references to British North America are out of line if one plays as the Spaniards, the Dutch or the French. The Dutch fight for independence under the Stars and Stripes? Ridiculous.

    Maybe reintroduce a possible intervention on your side by another European power? One could increase the fun by also making it possible that the king persuades one of the other powers to join his side against YOU.

    Basically, though, I agree with that other poster who said he'd simply be happy with the original Col game with better graphics and the annoying bugs removed. The trade bug - though the way trade is set up in COl II is counterintuitive and much inferior to the way one set up and edited trade routes in Col II. No return of the extremely irritating Encircling Dragoons, of course. And, as I said, remove the remains of the REF after you have achieved independence.
     
  14. Öjevind Lång

    Öjevind Lång Deity

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    I emphatically agree with this. I forgot to include that in my previous post. Trade with the Indians should become *more* lucrative, not less, as the game proceeds.
     
  15. dalgo

    dalgo Emperor

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    This would fix one of the most important issues, but I hope it takes the difficulty level into account. At present the starting REF is the same for every difficulty level, from rank newbie up to Revolutionary. I would like to see a more graduated approach with a small starting REF at Pilgrim level and a very slow increase so that someone new to the game can make a lot of mistakes but still be in with a chance at the end. That doesn't happen now. Conversely if a player chooses to play at Revolutionary then he should face a larger starting REF and a much harder game with the REF increasing quickly as it does now.
     
  16. kaibayashi

    kaibayashi Warlord

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    Not if all you do is sell them horses and guns at massively inflated prices!! :p

    Anyways, no offense to Firaxis, but for now i think i'll stick with AoD :)
     
  17. Lord Shadow

    Lord Shadow General

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    Thing is, will the official patch fix anything Dale hasn't already?

    Most of the things in the official changelog have already been addressed by his patchmod.
     
  18. Öjevind Lång

    Öjevind Lång Deity

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    Well, to once more refer to the original game, there the Indians paid very well the first time you sold them horses, and then less for every time you sold them horses, until they had as many as they neeeded and didn't want to buy any more. Instead they started to sell them to you - at a generally steep price, but it could still be useful during the WoI. Sometimes they also acquired horses by ambushing one of your scouts, and that diminished their interest in buying them from you.

    The Sioux and the Apache remained interested in buying horses longer than the other tribes.

    As for guns: in original Col, not all Indians were very interested in buying them, and sometimes the price they offered was lower than you had paid for them in Europe. Quite generally, trading with the Indians was much more interesting and challenging in the original game.
     
  19. mboza

    mboza Warlord

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    Hrm, requests. Off the top of my head:

    1) Adopt Dale's fixes wholesale.

    2) Rebalance REF. Change starting size based on difficulty. Delay expansions if King is happy. Reduce REF size dependance on total bells, instead increase influence of bells/turn, % sentiment, and colony military power.

    2b) Increase REF in balanced increments, not just one type of unit. The difficulty of the WoI is as much based on the total transport capacity of the REF, as that governs how many troops can be landed in a single wave. In one game my REF jumped from 6 MoW to 17 just a couple of turns before I declared, allowing it to land 65% of its force in the first wave. (Resulting in a far shorter, but bloodier war)

    3) Rebalance map generation away from Tobacco? It is annoying to only see one or two cotton or sugar resources across the entire map.

    4) Change Europe pricing algorithms away from total goods traded, towards goods traded recently, so that prices will actually recover if you stop trading a good entirely, rather than continue to sink because the current price lags behind the target price. Increase influence of other powers trading on prices, so that muskets, tools and horses go up because other Europeans buy them. I understand this parameter is in the game, but set to zero? (Change by difficulty?)

    5) Change native goods desires. We know they all want guns, but only guns?

    6) Cannon. Currently most useful for destroying the REF after conceding a colony to them. I would allow them to have defensive bonuses when defending a settlement, and have them give some manner of protection from shore bombardment by MoW (perhaps not sinking MoW outright, but it would be nice if you could threaten a damaged MoW with a SoL.

    7) Founding fathers - 25% reduction of prices to train is huge, I would split this across 4 founding fathers (as 10,5,5,5%). Equally some seem very weak by the time you get them (a caravel?, 2 indentured servants?)

    8) BtS style quests, perhaps the King wishes you to start trading in a new good or teach someone a lesson, rather than simply give him gold?

    Frankly, what bugs me most is that many of Dale's fixes seemed very straightforward. He was posting a couple of lines of code, and pointing out where variables were missing. So this patch should have been out months ago, and we should be arguing over balance decisons (like 4, 6 and 7), not bug fixes. Dawn of War 2 is not yet out, but already it has a balance patch, and I expect to see many more.
     
  20. Supr49er

    Supr49er 2011 Thunderfall Cup

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    Thanks for the update Pete, and welcome to the Forums. :beer:
     

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