An update from Firaxis Games regarding Beyond Earth feedback

[KrikkitTwo]

Trade route yields could be managed with the 3rd route from autoplants. But that does nothing for the insane micromanagement of them. Removing that quest option cuts out 1/3 of the routes, which helps. Interesting to think about, but unless they reduce TRs to 1/city, it's unlikely to go that route.

If they improve both
1. TR UI (easy to get previous route and yield sorting)
and
2. TR yield calculations (to make them more simple)

Then 3 tr per city is fine

 

[Haggbart]

If they improve both
1. TR UI (easy to get previous route and yield sorting)
and
2. TR yield calculations (to make them more simple)

Then 3 tr per city is fine

Would be great if yields were at a level you would actually have to consider where/if to build another city.

Also afraid 3routes/city without an upper limit to total number will continue to be ICS-food (pending health penalties).

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Would be great if yields were at a level you would actually have to consider where/if to build another city.

Also afraid 3routes/city without an upper limit to total number will continue to be ICS-food (pending health penalties).

If yields were based on the sending city output (instead of the difference with the receiving city) 3 routes from a lousy city would be lousy.

 

[Ryoga]

Interesting omissions from the list (things they are putting off til later/don't see as problems)
No talk of
-balancing building quests
-worker/explorer miasma warnings
-alien aggression settings
-wonder balance
-diplomacy ?in AI?

The lack of an alien aggression mention is what is making me sad the most right now. I'm used to the messed up diplomacy from Civ V and I don't really expect it can be fixed on the first patch, the rest is easily moddable and has already been modded, but the alien aggression as it is now is broken and cannot be fixed through lua since there are no API to change the aliens' diplo value.

All the values that can be currently modified in the XML cannot change what is ultimately not working: i.e. you can massacre all the aliens you want with impunity as long as you use the right systems.

 

[Selereth]

The lack of an alien aggression mention is what is making me sad the most right now. I'm used to the messed up diplomacy from Civ V and I don't really expect it can be fixed on the first patch, the rest is easily moddable and has already been modded, but the alien aggression as it is now is broken and cannot be fixed through lua since there are no API to change the aliens' diplo value.

All the values that can be currently modified in the XML cannot change what is ultimately not working: i.e. you can massacre all the aliens you want with impunity as long as you use the right systems.

Have you looked at the mod called "Alien Hostility"? It actually does a fairly decent job of making the aliens more aggressive. For example, the aliens are set to instantly become frenzied (turn red) if you raze just one nest, and it takes a lot longer now for their aggression levels to return to normal.

It also moves the Ultrasonic Fence to the tech where you unlock the Xeno Cavalry (can't remember the tech name) so it's harder to defend against the aliens plus trade routes remain vulnerable much longer now, since you can't get the quest from the Fence.

It's a pretty decent mod that manages to circumvent the bugged aggression levels the game has coded. I even went into the mod's lua file to change the turn at which siege worms and Kraken can start to spawn in order to make it trickier.

With this mod, siege worms will actually raze your outposts now, so you have to be a lot more cautious when handling the aliens for the first 100 turns. I lost an outpost to a siege worm even though the aliens were still green at the time before turn 150, although granted all the AIs were ganging up on the aliens so that didn't help matters.

 

[Ryoga]

Have you looked at the mod called "Alien Hostility"? It actually does a fairly decent job of making the aliens more aggressive. For example, the aliens are set to instantly become frenzied (turn red) if you raze just one nest, and it takes a lot longer now for their aggression levels to return to normal.

It also moves the Ultrasonic Fence to the tech where you unlock the Xeno Cavalry (can't remember the tech name) so it's harder to defend against the aliens plus trade routes remain vulnerable much longer now, since you can't get the quest from the Fence.

It's a pretty decent mod that manages to circumvent the bugged aggression levels the game has coded. I even went into the mod's lua file to change the turn at which siege worms and Kraken can start to spawn in order to make it trickier.

With this mod, siege worms will actually raze your outposts now, so you have to be a lot more cautious when handling the aliens for the first 100 turns. I lost an outpost to a siege worm even though the aliens were still green at the time before turn 150, although granted all the AIs were ganging up on the aliens so that didn't help matters.

The issue is in the system that handles how the aliens' opinion degenerates, the mod you are talking about does not fix that completely.
Razing nest is the only thing that actually works, but trust me if you can make them angry by attacking them it just means you don't know that there are ways to do that with impunity no matter how you modify the values. And it is probably better that you don't learn them (unfortunately I do).

I still want the option to befriend aliens to exist, but I want that to be something that is properly earned by actually being nice to them.
As things are now you can be friend with aliens while still wiping them from the face of the planet.

 

[Breezin]

I'd prefer a small hotfix/patch to address the small issues causing angst. The big one for me is having to keep renewing trade routes. I'm sure there are other small issues that could be similarly fixed quickly as well with just a small patch. That way the annoying issues could be resolved while we wait for the big patch.

 

[Haggbart]

If yields were based on the sending city output (instead of the difference with the receiving city) 3 routes from a lousy city would be lousy.

That is true. I think the most likely is a plain reduction of yields or the number of TRs, or more likely a combination. But they might surprise me and change the whole system like you describe.

 

[Roxlimn]

The logarithmic yields right now are functional in that they allow a very powerful city to supply worthwhile TRs to both a no-surplus or no-hammer city and one that actually has some food or hammers - the TR won't be quite as big, but the difference is small - two hammers or food from high amounts.

Delaying the route income might be enough, I think. If the Depot is not purchasable, then the city will have to build the Depot itself - can be problematic if the ground is hammer-poor. You could send routes from the major centers to get it up, but that's a serious investment (routes plus building the trade vessels) that deserves a serious reward.

Basically, the expansion issue is Health-related. It'd still be there regardless of how the TRs are managed.

It'd actually be an interesting thought-experiment to balance the Autoplant quest WITHOUT dumping the +1 trade route per city option. How much energy is one extra trade route per city worth? You can get something like 20 food and production from a single trade route (given that you get food and production at both ends of the route), so would a "balanced" Autoplant decision be something like:

+1 trade route per city
OR
+60 energy per city

(Disclaimer: I don't actually have hard numbers on the maximum yield of an internal trade route, it's simply etched into my brain as "tons")

The basic energy value might go up as high as 15 plus 10-ish science. In general, land routes vary between 0-10 food and 0-10 hammers depending on how optimized the route is, with half the outgoing returning to the sending city. The food value is generally lower on account of the calculation being based on surplus, not total generated food.

Off the cuff, a fair estimate might be 4food/8hammer outgoing, 2food/4hammer back on a land route = 6food/12hammer. I'd value that at 25 or 30 energy/turn - half your estimate - for a modestly optimized route set in the mid or late game. Early game value might be half of 25 - maybe 13 EPT.

 

[Roxlimn]

You're better off selling those resources for energy. You can bribe them with energy instead of favours if that's your intent, but energy won't get wiped out if they decide to declare war on you, unlike favours.

Yet another dumb thing AIs do - buy resources they have no use for with energy they do have a use for. Whether they need a resource doesn't factor into their calculations at all. A human player might pay more for a resource they need, but they certainly won't buy one they don't need for any price.

The AI will agree to some terms if you throw favors in but never unless you do so. Maybe. I don't have the code, but I did observe the behavior. The AI will do things like respond to a demand or sell you a city if you have favors owed with them.

The AI buying things for no reason is a major strategy for beating the higher levels of difficulty in Civ5. It's not patched out in the same way that the Great Library free tech was never patched out. It's considered a good thing.

Don't ask me why. I don't know, either.

 

[Roxlimn]

Yeah, this is a big one. Fine with me since there's no point in fixing balance half way (and since I don't have any stability issues). Thanks for the update!

The reason SC2 beta-development and balancing took so long for a relatively short (30 minutes turnover) and simple game is because balance isn't something you fix. It's called "balance" partly because one or more choices are weighed well, but in an interrelated system, it's less like balancing two pans of metal and much more like managing a Rube Goldberg machine. One change leads to another, and another, and another.

Seeing an "unbalanced" game like release CivBE and bagging on it for the issues isn't a thing I like doing lightly because I don't know how many iterations it's been through and what truly ridiculous unbalanced stuff isn't in it anymore.

Regardless of what changes come in the next patch, the overwhelming probability is that something else will go off-kilter or it won't be enough. The truth is, a perfectly balanced game where everything is an equal choice and you can go through the tech tree or building queue choosing anything you want is also not a thing we want for Civ. We don't want everything balanced. We just want the right kind of unbalanced in the right places.

That takes time, and usually a crapton of patches.

 

[Acken]

I think many of your guys don't have a very clear idea of how balance works and how it's patched into games.

The reason SC2 beta-development and balancing took so long for a relatively short (30 minutes turnover) and simple game is because balance isn't something you fix. It's called "balance" partly because one or more choices are weighed well, but in an interrelated system, it's less like balancing two pans of metal and much more like managing a Rube Goldberg machine. One change leads to another, and another, and another.

Seeing an "unbalanced" game like release CivBE and bagging on it for the issues isn't a thing I like doing lightly because I don't know how many iterations it's been through and what truly ridiculous unbalanced stuff isn't in it anymore.

Regardless of what changes come in the next patch, the overwhelming probability is that something else will go off-kilter or it won't be enough. The truth is, a perfectly balanced game where everything is an equal choice and you can go through the tech tree or building queue choosing anything you want is also not a thing we want for Civ. We don't want everything balanced. We just want the right kind of unbalanced in the right places.

That takes time, and usually a crapton of patches.

If at least they had some sort of beta patch while they're working on it. They apparently aren't really good at balancing stuff by themselves without player feedback (based on BE release).

And if I remember correctly the beta they attempted with BNW fall patch was very short and many "testers" were unsatisfied by the weak amount of fixes introduced.

 

[Roxlimn]

That goes without saying.

Like I said, in game design, you don't actually want everything balanced. The UUs in Civ BNW are fun precisely because they're unbalanced - in a balanced way, if that makes any sense. If you just wanted perfect balance, you just wouldn't have UUs of any kind at all. Creating differences and mismatches and off-kilters is what makes the game fun.

The designers can't know which kind of unbalance we want until we tell them.

 

[Acken]

Yes I understand what you're saying even though yes it's not really easy to define.

 

[SupremacyKing2]

That goes without saying.

Like I said, in game design, you don't actually want everything balanced. The UUs in Civ BNW are fun precisely because they're unbalanced - in a balanced way, if that makes any sense. If you just wanted perfect balance, you just wouldn't have UUs of any kind at all. Creating differences and mismatches and off-kilters is what makes the game fun.

Very insightful post!

When you think about it, is the queen piece "unbalanced" in chess? She's a powerful piece but that is by design. Chess would be really boring if all the pieces were pawns. It is the fact that you have rooks, bishops, knights, all unique pieces with unique strengths that makes chess interesting.

The designers can't know which kind of unbalance we want until we tell them.

This is precisely why I don't blame the devs for releasing such an "unbalanced" game on release. They made a game that from their perspective, I am sure, seemed like a fun game and if it was unbalanced, it was in the good way. They had no way of knowing that what they thought was the good kind of unbalance was in fact the wrong kind, until we the masses of gamers told them that it is not fun for us.

 

[Acken]

This is precisely why I don't blame the devs for releasing such an "unbalanced" game on release. They made a game that from their perspective, I am sure, seemed like a fun game and if it was unbalanced, it was in the good way. They had no way of knowing that what they thought was the good kind of unbalance was in fact the wrong kind, until we the masses of gamers told them that it is not fun for us.

While I don't blame them for not being the best at balance as developers, I kind of blame them for not being more pro-active in making sure the game is strongly tested by some fans. And once the game is tested to be really active in changing some stuff.

If not at release (for whatever reason) then at least after release while cooking the next patch. Releasing a beta patch available on steam would be a good first step (which may happen I don't know). But that is not enough, once the beta patch is there a dialogue between testers and developers has to occur and changes made during the beta (or at least to prepare the next patch iteration). If you take a look at Rome2, they released beta patchs but never really changed things before release. The beta was mostly there for bugs only.

 

[Selereth]

The issue is in the system that handles how the aliens' opinion degenerates, the mod you are talking about does not fix that completely.
Razing nest is the only thing that actually works, but trust me if you can make them angry by attacking them it just means you don't know that there are ways to do that with impunity no matter how you modify the values. And it is probably better that you don't learn them (unfortunately I do).

I still want the option to befriend aliens to exist, but I want that to be something that is properly earned by actually being nice to them.
As things are now you can be friend with aliens while still wiping them from the face of the planet.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean. Have you tested this mod? I noticed that when I used a ranged unit to attack an alien wolf beetle their colour changed from orange to red. Didn't you say that was bugged a while ago? Either you're wrong or the modder has managed to fix that, either way it is very easy to aggravate the aliens now. It only takes a few attacks on their units to quickly escalate their aggression levels, and once they're red they stay red for more than just a few turns.

It also doesn't matter whether you use ranged or melee units, any sort of attack (with the possible exception of city attacks) WILL negatively modify your status with them. Now if I knew which value affected how long it takes to become friendly I'd change that since I don't agree with the aliens becoming blue in... 2 turns it seems, at least while using this mod.

 

[draknor]

Seeing an "unbalanced" game like release CivBE and bagging on it for the issues isn't a thing I like doing lightly because I don't know how many iterations it's been through and what truly ridiculous unbalanced stuff isn't in it anymore.

+1

I don't think the game is actually all THAT unbalanced. Maybe I'm just not at the tier of player skill that everyone else is (I haven't tried Apollo, never played at Diety in previous incarnations), but I generally like the balance. There are a few things that I consider out of whack - alien aggression (or lack thereof) + TR protection via USF so early sort of minimizes that mechanic, but that's certainly addressable. There's definitely some UI stuff that I feel could be tweaked & improved (and there's some great mods out there that do that wonderfully).

 

[Esperr]

3ept for 1 favor, then 1 favor for 100 energy.

Needs to be fixed meow. You shouldn't be able to turn the other seven factions into investment banks.

 

[Ryoga]

I'm not entirely sure what you mean. Have you tested this mod? I noticed that when I used a ranged unit to attack an alien wolf beetle their colour changed from orange to red. Didn't you say that was bugged a while ago? Either you're wrong or the modder has managed to fix that, either way it is very easy to aggravate the aliens now. It only takes a few attacks on their units to quickly escalate their aggression levels, and once they're red they stay red for more than just a few turns.

It also doesn't matter whether you use ranged or melee units, any sort of attack (with the possible exception of city attacks) WILL negatively modify your status with them. Now if I knew which value affected how long it takes to become friendly I'd change that since I don't agree with the aliens becoming blue in... 2 turns it seems, at least while using this mod.

Nope I tried. I went on an area with 4 alien nests. I wiped all the aliens from the area but one, and it was still green.



You are under the misconception that I claim that ranged attacks do not cause the alien opinion to degenerate. That is incorrect.

It's not the "kind" of attack that matters

Spoiler :

It's the distance.
As long as you don't attack them with a unit from an adjacent square you can't get them angry.
Ranged attacks can still enrage them if you do it from melee range.