AND2 and SVN Bug Reports - A New Dawn 2 ONLY

[Rezca]

IIRC there are some civics which get a bonus for units stationing in a city while other get a penalty, but I don't remeber which ones are and I'm not sure if it has anything to do with revolt probability or just with happiness / unhappiness.

As for Revolution, I've never had problems with AI in my games and I always play with revolution on. Joseph will surely say otherwise. My advice is try it and see for yourself.

Most of the time the "big AIs" tend to handle the revolutions just fine unless they make some stupid mistake (Darius settling five cities in almost fourteen turns WHILE suffering revolutions AND being at war with a neighbor may count as such), or are a 'fledgling empire' and still reject every rebel request when they obviously can't put them down. A few rejected demands later and I see them with - at most - two to three injured defenders per city and rebels continue to harass them. The larger empires rarely suffer unless I continuously encourage these rebels via espionage.

The first time I saw a World Power fall to rebellions was in a Marathon/Huge/Noble game on a Highlands script. It was Lincoln and he had the Great Wall, and like 40 cities. Every now and then I noticed he was rejecting rebel demands, but it was always 'disorganized rebels' so they immediately got booted out of his territory due to the great wall... Up until the Assyrians razed that city shortly after I had a spy send Lincoln into a 17-turn empire-wide anarchy. Not much longer after, Lincoln had several cities with NO defenders and usually only one defender in his "core" cities. Up until that Anarchy mission, he was doing great.


I see the AI almost always reject rebel demands (Don't we all?) but I can't say for sure if they don't know how to deal with or are unable to deal with Revolutions. I know it does tend to bite them hard often, but I often see at least one AI handling them quite well... Unless the player intervenes with spy action



That being said, I think the AI overall will often have troubles with Revolutions if they start getting hit by them early in their empire's lifespan or during an expansion moment or big war. The AIs that are waging successful wars and can get into the Renaissance Era without being peppered by rebellions generally end up being able to handle them better than the ones that have a city constantly rebel against them while they're already struggling. I have yet to see a major AI power be humbled by the Revolution mod unless I poked my nose into their affairs as well (Or stirred up trouble with the World Builder )


That example I made about Darius? True story while playing on the Orion scenario map many many revisions ago. He was taken out of the game because of the rebellions, HOWEVER many years later he returned via revolutions! Ended up destroying one of the Rev-Spawned civs and began retaking part of his empire. It was very fun to see

 

[45°38'N-13°47'E]

Strange, I had logging on and got another CTD - no mention of city razing at the end in the logs. Deleted the logs, loaded the save, new turn... no crash. PythonErr2.log has the same last few lines. So I'm not getting the Barb CTD but random ones? That sucks even worse.

Not sure how much this helps - I'm including the logs and that particular save. SVN 674, Lakes, Rocky, Large world, Marathon, Barbarian world + civs + generals; not sure what else you guys need to know.

I didn't have any crash trying your save. I couldn't find what the problem could be from the logs but it looks like a random crash, not much I can do at the moment. The problem you reported earlier about razing size 1 cities has been solved a long time ago.

 

[45°38'N-13°47'E]

Most of the time the "big AIs" tend to handle the revolutions just fine unless they make some stupid mistake (Darius settling five cities in almost fourteen turns WHILE suffering revolutions AND being at war with a neighbor may count as such), or are a 'fledgling empire' and still reject every rebel request when they obviously can't put them down. A few rejected demands later and I see them with - at most - two to three injured defenders per city and rebels continue to harass them. The larger empires rarely suffer unless I continuously encourage these rebels via espionage.

The first time I saw a World Power fall to rebellions was in a Marathon/Huge/Noble game on a Highlands script. It was Lincoln and he had the Great Wall, and like 40 cities. Every now and then I noticed he was rejecting rebel demands, but it was always 'disorganized rebels' so they immediately got booted out of his territory due to the great wall... Up until the Assyrians razed that city shortly after I had a spy send Lincoln into a 17-turn empire-wide anarchy. Not much longer after, Lincoln had several cities with NO defenders and usually only one defender in his "core" cities. Up until that Anarchy mission, he was doing great.


I see the AI almost always reject rebel demands (Don't we all?) but I can't say for sure if they don't know how to deal with or are unable to deal with Revolutions. I know it does tend to bite them hard often, but I often see at least one AI handling them quite well... Unless the player intervenes with spy action



That being said, I think the AI overall will often have troubles with Revolutions if they start getting hit by them early in their empire's lifespan or during an expansion moment or big war. The AIs that are waging successful wars and can get into the Renaissance Era without being peppered by rebellions generally end up being able to handle them better than the ones that have a city constantly rebel against them while they're already struggling. I have yet to see a major AI power be humbled by the Revolution mod unless I poked my nose into their affairs as well (Or stirred up trouble with the World Builder )


That example I made about Darius? True story while playing on the Orion scenario map many many revisions ago. He was taken out of the game because of the rebellions, HOWEVER many years later he returned via revolutions! Ended up destroying one of the Rev-Spawned civs and began retaking part of his empire. It was very fun to see

There are 3 more things to consider: balancing, balancing, balancing.
When I started balancing the game I noted that AI was able to face revolutions more easily once I made wonders construction and research more balanced. Until some months ago I was able to build almost every single wonder, except for those I wasn't interested in or for those I was unable to build because my cities had reached the 4 wonders cap. In the latest revisions, most of the times I'm not the one building most of the wonders. In turns, this helps greatly AI. It's easy to win when you have all those wonders helping you. But if you can't build them all while other civs do, you'll see they'll handle their problems much better, while you could sometimes have problems. Speaking of balance, there are a couple of bugs I still want to fix, then we'll start another quick testing session; and I'd wait next Vokarya revision as well, I'd like to see that Penicillin Project (or was it a Wonder?).

 

[rtt4a]

@45°

Did you said that "UN checked, Diplo win forced" - bug was solved..?

I still get it, rev 675

 

[45°38'N-13°47'E]

@45°

Did you said that "UN checked, Diplo win forced" - bug was solved..?

I still get it, rev 675

Can you upload your save? I've tested this one, I was pretty sure it was solved. You shouldn't even be able to vote for a world leader (I mean, there should be no way to vote for that thing, only other resolutions are permitted).
Thank you.

 

[rtt4a]

Can you upload your save? I've tested this one, I was pretty sure it was solved. You shouldn't even be able to vote for a world leader (I mean, there should be no way to vote for that thing, only other resolutions are permitted).
Thank you.

Never uploaded save and been lurking these forums since 2004 I think I can learn how to do that but... I didnt clean cache or anything so I make new clean instal first and test again and if bug is there then upload save? Im not home now so thursday earlies, sorry.

If you want faster info just start game with UN checked, I tried 3 times and diplo win is always on. You can check it victory conditions advisor or WB save, both tells me that diplo win gets enabled if game starts with UN option.

Thx for hard work!

 

[45°38'N-13°47'E]

Never uploaded save and been lurking these forums since 2004 I think I can learn how to do that but... I didnt clean cache or anything so I make new clean instal first and test again and if bug is there then upload save? Im not home now so thursday earlies, sorry.

If you want faster info just start game with UN checked, I tried 3 times and diplo win is always on. You can check it victory conditions advisor or WB save, both tells me that diplo win gets enabled if game starts with UN option.

Thx for hard work!

Wait, wait. You see Diplomatic Victory in the victory screen but that doesn't mean that anyone can win. That screen is triggered by UN option, but nobody can win a Diplomatic Victory now. When someone is elected Secretary General of UN, resolutions can still be voted but there's no option to vote for Diplomatic Victory (world leader) anymore, hence no one can win that way.

 

[rtt4a]

Wait, wait. You see Diplomatic Victory in the victory screen but that doesn't mean that anyone can win. That screen is triggered by UN option, but nobody can win a Diplomatic Victory now. When someone is elected Secretary General of UN, resolutions can still be voted but there's no option to vote for Diplomatic Victory (world leader) anymore, hence no one can win that way.

Ok I saw diblomatic victory in WB save (Victory=VICTORY_DIPLOMATIC) and taught its still on.

 

[45°38'N-13°47'E]

Ok I saw diblomatic victory in WB save (Victory=VICTORY_DIPLOMATIC) and taught its still on.

It must be that way in order to allow UN resolutions, but while before you were actually able to win a Diplo Victory, now you can not.

 

[rtt4a]

It must be that way in order to allow UN resolutions, but while before you were actually able to win a Diplo Victory, now you can not.

Over 10 years solved bugs and corrected misunderstandings without uploading saves and virginity remains

 

[platyping]

Wait, wait. You see Diplomatic Victory in the victory screen but that doesn't mean that anyone can win. That screen is triggered by UN option, but nobody can win a Diplomatic Victory now. When someone is elected Secretary General of UN, resolutions can still be voted but there's no option to vote for Diplomatic Victory (world leader) anymore, hence no one can win that way.

You can always hide it in victory screen to avoid misunderstandings

 

[45°38'N-13°47'E]

You can always hide it in victory screen to avoid misunderstandings

You're right, I'm not a python expert but it shouldn't be too hard. I'll see what I can do.

 

[Kryanni]

I didn't have any crash trying your save. I couldn't find what the problem could be from the logs but it looks like a random crash, not much I can do at the moment. The problem you reported earlier about razing size 1 cities has been solved a long time ago.

But that's great! Shouldn't the first post reflect that, though?

I've got another guess as to my CTD; the thread about Future Plans mentions that a low UPT limit (<10) causes instability - I'd been playing with 2-5. When I get home today I'll reinstall everything and start playing with 10 UPT.

As for Revolution, I've never had problems with AI in my games and I always play with revolution on. Joseph will surely say otherwise. My advice is try it and see for yourself.

I think I may have been relying on outdated advice back from the 1.75 days. This is good news, I've always wanted to try it out, looks like I'll start playing with Revolution on now.

Also, big thanks for the detailed example, Rezca

 

[Rezca]

There's that 'Burn Forest/Jungle' thing again. I never see the AI 'Chop Forest/Jungle' - always the useless Burn option. He's definitely got Iron Working, since he's researched Metallurgy already


Are they programmed to only use Burn ____ or is it just because they don't think they need it? It *is* a Quick/Noble game, but that wouldn't explain the island-spawned AIs with absolutely no production who would have needed that chop bonus (And yes, WB confirmed they had Iron Working as well)

The worker in question is one tile beneath my Spy on the left side of the screen that I'm highlighting

 

[dbkblk]

There's that 'Burn Forest/Jungle' thing again. I never see the AI 'Chop Forest/Jungle'

There is easier to see this behavior. Just put your worker in automatic mode, and it'll burn forest/jungle instead of chopping them.
I recently passed renaissance on my game, and while having to much cities to manage, i decided to put my workers on auto mode and found the said behavior.

 

[Rezca]

There is easier to see this behavior. Just put your worker in automatic mode, and it'll burn forest/jungle instead of chopping them.
I recently passed renaissance on my game, and while having to much cities to manage, i decided to put my workers on auto mode and found the said behavior.

You'd think that the automation would prioritize chopping over useless burning once they have the ability to do so


I never Automate anything except missionaries and sometimes some cavalry/helicopters on Auto-Pillage missions, so I've never seen it except for witnessing the AI do it.

 

[JosEPh_II]

With the introduction of Jungle Camps this behavior was supposed to be eliminated. Seems the later eras evaluation of building JC's is marginal at best. The AI weight for the AI to build JC's needs bumped up so that Jungles are converted to JC's. Not burned down or chopped but JC built instead. But I do know that JC's have been toned down from what they originally were meant to be. I do not know how much the balancing for eras have affected the JC but from what you are saying it has all but eliminated them for the later eras of the mod.

The JC was designed to make the Jungle tile a usable and viable option to more than just chopping or burning a useless tile down to it's base terrain.

I thought I was seeing a degradation to the JC several versions back but 45* has said he has not touched them. So it has to be in AI Weighting and Balancing that has nullified teir effects on the AI's choice to use them. Then again if Players do not understand the value of JCs and do Not build them then the Auto Mode for workers would place no value on Jungle tiles because they Have Not been Improved by the player.

Start building JCs on Jungle tiles and then see if the Automation continues to burn or even chop. It should Not do either If the tile is improved with a JC.

I worked too long on Vincentz' original JC to see it become nullified in AND.

JosEPh

 

[Rezca]

I still see a lot of Jungle Camps, but if it's starting to go into AD years and a Jungle plot doesn't have a JC on it, they'll burn it. Or if a resource popped up under it - either a hidden one like oil or a spawned one from a JC - they'll burn it instead of chop it.

 

[urtho]

Where you'll frequently see the burn jungle behavior from auto-workers on un-improved tiles is in the mid/later eras when the workable tiles for a city expands into the 3rd ring due to culture spread and a previously "out of range" tile suddenly is now usable by a city. If such a jungle tile is in that range and you have some/all workers set on auto improve you'll see them beeline to those tiles and try to burn it away to the base terrain ASAP, which is unfortunate as JCs are very useful improvements even in the later eras. AIs of course use auto-workers and so any territory of theirs you conquer after the mid-point of the game will usually be a vast wasteland of bare tiles as they chop/burn any forests and jungle away.

@mod team - been away from this mod and Civ for a bit, nice to see many juicy new improvements since I last played (which was like 630 or something heh). Especially noticed the dreaded "minimum city culture" feature has been made optional - very well done on that, may make culture useful in this mod again for the first time in a long while. Just updated the SVN, eager to play a new game. Thanks for all the continuing work on this mod.

 

[45°38'N-13°47'E]

I'm investigating that chop/burn issue, hopefully it can be solved.

@urtho, welcome back I hope you'lle enjoy the new revision