Discussion in 'Civ4 - Caveman 2 Cosmos' started by Thunderbrd, Dec 6, 2018.
Never mind - I really need a few barrels of
Most of this discussion has been about making a building do something that it is not intended for. Most suggestions break the buildings by trying to fit a square peg in a round hole. They seem to be trying to fix a different problem entirely. One which I have struggled with but have not found a solution possible in BtS. It was easily fixed in Civ III but the dumbing down of trade aspects in Civ IV, wow.
The Reveal techs on a lot of the resources need to be changed but it will also require some changes to the resource definitions as well so that their yields are reduced for the earlier date and only made their current values at the tech they are currently revealed at. This is a problem we have with copper and iron at the moment. Their yields are to high to early.
All plants should be visible at Gathering and all animals at the first Hunting tech.
If this is done then the "Not in vicinity" national wonders are not needed at all.
Can you try to explain why they are needed in the first place?
It was possible to build your nation to have a resource but not in the vicinity of any city. This was because the cities were placed for maximum use of space which leaves plots outside city radius since we use square plots and fat crosses for city radii.
Ok. And it still is. Is that an attempt to explain why we need to ensure that any buildings be made to require that a promotion is NOT within a city radius?
To be fair, you asked why "not in vicinity" wonders were needed, and that's what DH answered. Maybe you meant to ask "why should these wonders have to be built without the resource in vicinity?" But, well, um... you didn't.
Well, ok, so my question really is, why should these wonders require not in vicinity in the first place?
I don't have any problems with moving all plant and animal reveal techs to gathering/scavenging (or column later persistence hunting if revealed later).
They would be visible earlier.
Moving resource reveal tech later could break some vicinity needing buildings.
I guess any water animals reveal tech could be moved to Trap Fishing if it wasn't before - its earliest water related tech (along with Raft Building in same column).
Plants and animals, that doesn't have reveal tech in Gathering/Scavenging:
Coca - Naturopathy
Cocoa - Naturopathy
Coffee - Spice Trade
Cotton - Weaving
Cow - Hunting (Scavenging)
Henna - Herbalism
Incense - Mysticism
Indigo - Herbalism
Kava - Herbalism
Opium - Herbalism
Pearls - Fishing (Trap Fishing)
Peyote - Herbalism
Pig - Hunting (Scavenging)
Rubber - Alchemy (it seems to be late natural resource), pedia mentions it was known in ancient times.
Sheep - Hunting (Scavenging)
Silk - Weaving
Spices - Cuisine
Sugar - Calendar
Tea - Folk Medicine
Tobacco - Herbalism
Vanilla - Herbalism
Whale - Sailing (Trap Fishing - bit of stretch here)
It appears only few animals aren't revealed by Scavenging/Trap Fishing (In brackets name of tech where it should go - default is gathering).
Horses, Camels and Elephants - ones with national breeder - are revealed on Scavenging tech.
Why "not in vicinity"? Because they are duplicates if the resource is in the vicinity. We don't allow two of anything just because you have two in the vicinity so why would you allow two this way?
Water animals also need to be early enough. Trap Fishing seems about right for fish, crabs, lobster and shrimp but Gathering would be right for shellfish. The Gatherer should be able to make a plot with one of these resources on it improved from a neighbouring land plot.
Shellfish is manufactured resource - that is you obtain it only trough building.
You would need to move all water animal resources reveal tech to Gathering.
They require one or two resources in vicinity.
You would need to make new shellfish related building, that requires any of shelled animals (pearls/lobsters/crabs/shrimp and so on).
Most of water animals are revealed by Trap Fishing already.
Also "Not in Vicinity" could be solve by replacement:
Vicinity building would replace Not in vicinity building.
You do want the national wonder to be buildable whether or not the resource is in vicinity of one of your cities (I'm agreeing with TB). That does mean you can get two of the resource from one source, but you can do the same with two cities sharing a vicinity tile, so why not?
I don't see why you would want to build it in a city with the resource in the vicinity. You can already build the Farm or the Mine and then the Smelter there, so why would you want to build the NW instead?
Or am I missing something?
Concerning the visibility of resources: Out of a game perspective I would prefer to have them visible better later than sooner, it increases the suspense when settling early cities if you don´t know where the resources are and therefore is fun (in my eyes). And it is probably more realistic, too, who would have decided on the starting location of a village on animals, plants or minerals that at that time have no value at all?
E.g. I think that Iron Ore is visible too early. If you can´t process it to iron it just isn´t worth anything, just a brownish ugly mineral (copper ore at least has nice colours ). But it already increases mining revenue which I think it shouldn´t.
I said shellfish not Shellfish it being short for clams, oysters/pearls and murex.
Clams and oysters being a shore line resource and not very mobile means that they were gathered like plants are not caught like fish, crabs and rabbits.
One in two cities is OK two in one city isn't because you can't do that with any other building.
Ok to be perfectly clear, I don't think the national wonder should be buildable in a city with the vicinity resource, but it should be buildable in any other city even if the resource is in vicinity at one or more of your cities.
I would do the resource system differently if it's technically possible.
I would only consider a resource as an active vicinity resource if the necessary improvement is built on the tile and the city is working it. If there are multiple tiles with the same resource and the city works both tiles I would count them multiple times. So if you have two Apples for example and there is an Orchard on both tiles and the city is working both tiles you would have two Apples. If there is two Orchards but the city is working on one of them then you would have one Apple. And if the city doesn't work any of them you would have no Apples at all.
It leaves the tiles outside any city's influence area. I would link them to the nearest city. In the city there would be a list of the linked tiles, and you could assign to them a pop in a similar way you can assign them for specialist positions. If there is a pop assigned to that tile and the right improvement is built on the tile you would get the resource in that city.
In the current system I think it would be much more simple to allow the resource wonder to be built in any city regardless of the resource in the city vicinity. I don't see it a bigger problem than using the same resource in the vicinity of multiple cities.
On the other hand if you build a horse central breeder for example and later you create a herd in the city hence you get horses in the vicinity it collides with the central breeder. What happens then? If you want to force this rule in the city there is already central breeder you should forbid creating the herd in the city, you should forbid for the event system to create a herd on the map in the city vicinity, you should forbid a Great Farmer to create a herd on the map near the city or for a simpler solution you should destroy the national breeder at the moment the resource created in the city vicinity. Much fuss for very little gain.
Actually it's not exactly true.
By building the national wonder you create a source of the resource in the city. You can have multiple sources of the same resource in the same city. You can have the same resource on multiple tiles around the city. Also you can build different buildings that give you the same resource, you can have multiple fruits, vegetables, nuts in the same city.
Strategically it doesn't matter if you have multiple sources of the same resource as long as you have at least one. As far as I know the only exception is when you trade your resources but I don't think that one national wonder makes too much difference in this case. It would be a very different case if there would be a volumetric resource system in the mod.
You can do that with many buildings that produce fruits, grain, berries, etc. Very often you can build quite a few of them, like Wheat Farm and Oat Farm (with Wheat and Olives in the vicinity).
Here's my problem with this. Once I have a city that has a vicinity resource access to horses, I no longer need another one. Anywhere. I can use that city to train my horses and send them around to make herds from there.
However, these National Breeders bring more than the resource. And it's irritating as hell that I cannot place a production generating building that I don't need anywhere else into the city where I most want to add to production.
So, IMO, the building should mean more than just a vicinity access and should therefore not be required to be placed where there isn't already access. And yes, you can get double vicinity or triple vicinity access - like you would if you had more than one of the resource within the workable radius of the city on the plots. I don't see how, if you're looking at this from the perspective of a real city developer, you'd be inclined to think, "well we can't put a major collection of breeding herd pens here because there's already wild horses roaming the hills nearby!" It makes no sense!
This is also an inaccurate statement. You can add a horse herd from a subdued horse where there is already a horse resource being worked. There are numerous buildings that create a bonus and by doing so create it with vicinity access for that city, and none of them are kept away from being constructable just because there's already access there. Look at the new salt generating buildings, for a non-animal example.
This is a second matter for discussion. To this, I'm a huge proponent of being able to see them earlier and thus being able to plan your city placements more effectively, particularly when some super important resources can be scarce enough that the only way you can get to them in time is to plan your way out to them from nearly the beginning of the game. However, I will agree that if you cannot use those resources, you shouldn't be getting additional yields from those plots. I may be able to correct that part of it in the code by finding where that extra yield is added to the plot based on visibility and change it to a tradeability function call instead.
The thing with "not when local access" for a wonder that you can only build 1 of, is that it being able to build it in cities with local access would only change the availability of said resource if all your cities already have local access, and it that case it would only increase the total by 1. There are of cause some strategic details of which cities have the production to actually build it and an increase in places in places an opponent might get access to the resource by invasion, but I have the feeling that those aspects are irrelevant.
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