Animals and Metals

[JosEPh_II]

From your perspective as a player, if your Tamed Animals can place themselves as bonuses on plots, what's your policy? Take up all the plots you can? (Especially knowing that you're taking away from other placement opportunities to come like from Great Farmers and maybe much much more on its way?) How would you define your player policy on this? Do you try to put, say, Horses, in every city you can, just one everywhere? Do you pick a couple of cities and give them horses? How many? Is it a percentage of the amount of cities you have in the empire or a fixed number such as say 3? Do you try to give them to your core cities or to your developing cities to help them grow faster? I need to understand how YOU would think the AI should behave on this matter.

1st Knowing that a Tamed Animal could even be placed as a plot resource is new to me, and probably to many players as well.
2nd Once I can build a tamed animal it is sent out to cities, cause I did not know they could be "planted". Especially newer cities for the Herds or buildings they can give. If they build herds then of course after the herd is built then the Farms. If no Farm then the specific building, i.e., 2 snakes for the Poison hut, etc..

Herds go to Every city. And snakes and reptiles usually do as well. I would send dart frogs but their special building comes in rather late for it's Poison.

Also at one point there used to be a chance that a Subdue/kill would immediately Plant that animals resource. Is that now gone?

Sidenote: And it's still extremely hard to subdue a Moflon, because of their scarcity. Your Tracker/Hunter only gets a couple of shots at it. Of course this is with reckless Animals On. And NPCs preying on each other. If you can find the Moflon spawn point then if you station several Hunters around it, to keep the predators at bay, your odds go up somewhat. But for the most part finding sheep resource is tuff.

 

[raxo2222]

1st Knowing that a Tamed Animal could even be placed as a plot resource is new to me, and probably to many players as well.
2nd Once I can build a tamed animal it is sent out to cities, cause I did not know they could be "planted". Especially newer cities for the Herds or buildings they can give. If they build herds then of course after the herd is built then the Farms. If no Farm then the specific building, i.e., 2 snakes for the Poison hut, etc..

Herds go to Every city. And snakes and reptiles usually do as well. I would send dart frogs but their special building comes in rather late for it's Poison.

Also at one point there used to be a chance that a Subdue/kill would immediately Plant that animals resource. Is that now gone?

Sidenote: And it's still extremely hard to subdue a Moflon, because of their scarcity. Your Tracker/Hunter only gets a couple of shots at it. Of course this is with reckless Animals On. And NPCs preying on each other. If you can find the Moflon spawn point then if you station several Hunters around it, to keep the predators at bay, your odds go up somewhat. But for the most part finding sheep resource is tuff.

1. So you and other players don't skim over help tooltips, that appear, when you hover over units in tech splash screen (on new tech discovery) or when deciding what building or unit to build?
No looking at pedia is needed here.
Help text for tamed units was added somewhere in 2017 (or 2015, as it could be just merge in 2017).

I guess then not only AIs may not know about unit special actions.

That is help entry on unit tooltip is not enough and guide for unit special actions is needed.

As for sheep I see that is very strange, that there is no tamed animal for it.

 

[JosEPh_II]

So you and other players don't skim over help tooltips, that appear, when you hover over units in tech splash screen (on new tech discovery) or when deciding what building or unit to build?

No, I don't usually don't, not after playing this damn Mod for 10 years plus!

As for sheep I see that is very strange, that there is no tamed animal for it.

I think DH said it was because of missing graphics. There should be at the least a Tamed Moflon. And there was an Ibex that you could use for sheep or goats. Have not had either for awhile too now.

 

[Thunderbrd]

1st Knowing that a Tamed Animal could even be placed as a plot resource is new to me, and probably to many players as well.

Yeah it's a new thing and a newly growing phenomenon. See the new thread on the new tag being developed to make this possible to do through many unit types. Feedback is invited there as well. With animals, the idea is that Tamed and Subdued types can plant their own animal type bonus on a plot - whether this will be with a chance for failure I'm not sure but I AM pretty sure that it would come along with the sacrifice of the animal unit. Horses are the first to get the test implementation of this concept but I don't think they've been given it through the new tag but were rather given it by a python programming which led to some frustrations that led to the request for the new tag dynamic on Build infos. I wouldn't think you should feel like you missed something - it was happening silently in PM discussions and DH efforts.

2nd Once I can build a tamed animal it is sent out to cities, cause I did not know they could be "planted". Especially newer cities for the Herds or buildings they can give. If they build herds then of course after the herd is built then the Farms. If no Farm then the specific building, i.e., 2 snakes for the Poison hut, etc..

Herds go to Every city. And snakes and reptiles usually do as well. I would send dart frogs but their special building comes in rather late for it's Poison.

Ok, but I'm asking for how you would go about using the bonus placing side of it. These details are not really changing (well not enough that it would change your approach) and I assume I'd make the AI concern themselves with this sort of behavior first. But then, once you have, say, a Horse Herd in every city, would you use them then to spread a few more map horse bonuses around or would you progress to the farms and myths or would you just stop there and never use more tamed horses to give map bonus sources of horses? And if you did, where you would you want to place them and with what motives in mind? I know that this is all suppositional but I'm asking for a 'what WOULD you do sort of answer' so I can factor that answer into AI design determinations.

Also at one point there used to be a chance that a Subdue/kill would immediately Plant that animals resource. Is that now gone?

I don't know. It was there, then removed, then came back for a while but I haven't seen it happening recently so DH must've yanked it out again for some reason. I'd be curious to hear why and he might've mentioned it at some point but I can't recall what his reasonings for removal might've been.

As for sheep I see that is very strange, that there is no tamed animal for it.

There are also no Rabbit units or Guinnea Pig units or Beaver units though they are just as key map resources that would benefit from being adopted into the chains we're building. It would be good to put together a spreadsheet to track all the bonus based animals (and others really but these primarily) to see which ones need to fill some gaps, such as in wild units, subdued units, tamed units, Herd (or breeding collection) buildings, Training Buildings, Economic Buildings (pets and farms), Myths, and so on. Then we can start systematically getting them all to have their gaps filled in where we want them. Obviously not all animal sets get everything but we do have issues with inconsistency right now. There's also no Tamed Elephants at the moment... ugh. Lots of gaps.

I think DH said it was because of missing graphics. There should be at the least a Tamed Moflon. And there was an Ibex that you could use for sheep or goats. Have not had either for awhile too now.

Yeah there's ways to flesh them out and we need to, as a team, get past our excuses. We have the skills between us to make this all happen but we're all just leaning on DH with animals and getting frustrated with him when we can get this done with a little coordination. I'm sure he's happy to have the help - he's been talking about putting together the checklist for animals as well so we could all pitch in to find and fill the gaps mentioned above. I know he's a bit busy of late and this is, IMO, priority number one for getting the mod into a more professional releasable state right now, so this is where our efforts should be focused as a group imo (not to say we don't have other things going on too but we need to start by getting a spreadsheet for full visibility done.) With the graphics, I've never learned how to apply them exactly to a new unit but I think it's time for us to stop thinking of it as a barrier. I'm sure we can find something - look at all that we already have! And you just gave us some great suggestions as to what to use as fillers for now at least in this one gap situation and I'm sure all other gaps can also get similar treatment.

 

[raxo2222]

Yeah it's a new thing and a newly growing phenomenon. See the new thread on the new tag being developed to make this possible to do through many unit types. Feedback is invited there as well. With animals, the idea is that Tamed and Subdued types can plant their own animal type bonus on a plot - whether this will be with a chance for failure I'm not sure but I AM pretty sure that it would come along with the sacrifice of the animal unit. Horses are the first to get the test implementation of this concept but I don't think they've been given it through the new tag but were rather given it by a python programming which led to some frustrations that led to the request for the new tag dynamic on Build infos.

There's also no Tamed Elephants at the moment... ugh. Lots of gaps.

I was talking about oldish stuff - help entries defined in Beastmaster_Help_CIV4GameText.xml not brand new tags.
For example such entry in Tamed Elephants. <Help>TXT_KEY_UNIT_TAMED_ELEPHANT_HELP</Help>

Why you thought there were no Tamed Elephant?
Maybe you were thinking about other Tamed Animal unit?

Here is Tamed Elephant and Tamed Horse with their XML help tooltips.
This Build.... and May place... text entries are in Beastmaster_Help_CIV4GameText.xml - files added (or merged) in 2017 or 2015.

Spoiler :

Maybe it had broken requirements and because of that was invisible in game?

I made list of tamed animals and more on end of last page.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Why you thought there were no Tamed Elephant?

We have them but unless it's been recently fixed you can't train them anywhere.

I know you gave them text tips but it's still been fairly recent and if you weren't reviewing all the info on the horse and didn't notice the new mission then it would've been easy to miss.

 

[Thunderbrd]

There are following land animal map resources:
Beavers, Bison, Camel, Cow, Deer, Donkey, Elephants, Guinea Pigs, Horse, Kangaroo, Llama, Mammoth, Parrots, Pig, Poultry, Rabbit, Sea Lion&Seal, Sheep, Walrus.

Animals without Animal Farm, Herd, Central Breeder, Animal Trainer and Tamed Animal chain are:
Beavers, Deer, Guinea Pigs, Kangaroo, Parrots, Poultry, Rabbit, Sea Lion&Seal, Sheep, Walrus
Beavers have Fur Farm.
Deer (Kangaroo/Poultry/Sheep) have Herd - Deer (Kangaroo/Poultry/Sheep).

Animals with any of those above (ATC = Animal Tamer Complex, Stable has two upgrades at later stages):
Bison: Tamed Bison <- ATC + Herd - Bison + Enclosure - Exotic Herbivorous + Stable
Cow: Tamed Cattle <- ATC + Cow Farm + Enclosure - Exotic Herbivorous (Herd - Cow exists outside chain)
Donkey: Tamed Donkey <- ATC + Donkey Farm + Stable (Herd - Donkey and Mule Trainer exists outside chain)
Llama: Tamed Llama <- ATC + Llama Farm + Stable (Herd - Llama and Llama Trainer exists outside chain. Alpaca Farm needs Llama Farm or Herd - Llama)
Mammoth: Tamed Mammoth <- ATC + Myth Effect Paleolithic Mammoth (Means can't build where myth itself where was placed) + Stable (Herd - Mammoth exists outside chain)
Pig: Tamed Wild Boar <- ATC + Pig Farm + Enclosure - Exotic Herbivorous (Herd - Pig exists outside chain)

Finished chains:
Camel: Tamed Camel <- ATC + Camel Trainer + Stable; Camel Trainer <- Camel Farm OR Central Breeder - Camel OR Herd - Camel.
Elephants: Tamed Elephant <- ATC + Elephant Trainer + Stable; Elephant Trainer <- Elephant Farm OR Central Breeder - Elephant OR Herd - Elephant.
Horse: Tamed Horse <- ATC + Horse Trainer + Stable; Horse Trainer <- Horse Farm OR Central Breeder - Horse OR Herd - Horse.

Guinea Pigs, Rabbits, Poultry and Sheep definitely should have Tamed Animals.
Donkey/Horse Breeding Pairs have slightly different chains.

---------------------------------
Central Breeders: Horse/Camel/Elephant

Herds (unbuildable): Bison, Camel, Cow, Deer, Donkey, Elephant, Horse, Kangaroo, Llama, Mammoth, Pig, Poultry, Sheep.
No herd: Beavers, Guinea Pigs, Parrots, Rabbit, Sea Lion&Seal, Walrus.

Farms (buildable): Llama/Alpaca (Llama), Fur (Beavers), Camel, Cow/Oxen (Cow)/Yak (Cow), Donkey, Duck/Goose/Turkey (Poultry+Apple/Olives/Wheat), Elephant, Sheep/Goat (Sheep), Horse, Pig, Reindeer (Deer - Cold climate).
No farm: Bison, Guinea Pigs, Kangaroo, Mammoth, Parrots, Poultry (No "standalone" farm), Rabbit, Sea Lion&Seal, Walrus.

Animal Trainer: Buffalo (Cow - Oxen Farm or Buffalo Herd), Camel, Elephant, Horse, Llama, Mule (Donkey)
No (regular) trainer: Beavers, Bison (Buffalo Trainer could be used here), Deer, Guinea Pigs, Kangaroo, Mammoth, Parrots, Pig, Poultry, Rabbit, Sea Lion&Seal, Sheep, Walrus.

Tamed Animal: Bison, Camel, Cattle (Cow), Donkey, Elephant, Horse, Llama, Mammoth, Wild Boar (Pig).
No tamed animal: Beavers, Deer, Guinea Pigs, Kangaroo, Parrots, Poultry, Rabbit, Sea Lion&Seal, Sheep, Walrus.

Sea Lion&Seal, Walrus and Mammoth could have Central Breeder in alt timelines.
Guinea Pigs, Rabbits, Parrots, Poultry and Sheep seemed to be completely forgotten.
As for Beavers, Bison, Deer and Kangaroo I'm not sure if Central Breeder could be regular or part of Alt Timeline (Megafauna Domestication).

Animal Trainer or something like that could be requirement for Tamed Animal.
Animal Trainer could require Farm or Herd or Central Breeder or few more animal related buildings - essentially be OR requirement merger.

I changed animal farm and trainer naming convention, so now they are much easier find in pedia.

Ok, i see... We need to get this into a spreadsheet!

 

[raxo2222]

We have them but unless it's been recently fixed you can't train them anywhere.

I know you gave them text tips but it's still been fairly recent and if you weren't reviewing all the info on the horse and didn't notice the new mission then it would've been easy to miss.

It was DH, who added those text tips in April 2017 in SVN 9590 or even earlier (it was when file was added).
I only fixed text mistake in this file.

I added help tips to space units, that are buildable on Earth.

 

[Thunderbrd]

It was DH, who added those text tips in April 2017 in SVN 9590 or even earlier (it was when file was added).
I only fixed text mistake in this file.

I added help tips to space units, that are buildable on Earth.

So that was since v39 began right? So still very recent.

 

[raxo2222]

So that was since v39 began right? So still very recent.

Eh that was merging texts related to tamed animals into core.

I managed to backtrack this help text file to SVN 8432 in April 2015.
Tamed_Horse got it mission outcome python in SVN 8796 in October 2015
It existed as Ecological Animals option.

DH started playing with animals in November 2014.
I think if Toffer's Pedia was done in 2013, then we wouldn't end up with messy situation in tamed animals, as he could quickly see in pedia what hes doing.

So all those subdued/tamed animal unit help entries were added in 2015 year.
And it slipped everyone's attention especially ability to place animal resources by few select tamed/subdued animals (added in 2015 too).

EDIT: I fixed Tamed Elephants recently.

 

[Thunderbrd]

There are following land animal map resources:
Beavers, Bison, Camel, Cow, Deer, Donkey, Elephants, Guinea Pigs, Horse, Kangaroo, Llama, Mammoth, Parrots, Pig, Poultry, Rabbit, Sea Lion&Seal, Sheep, Walrus.

Animals without Animal Farm, Herd, Central Breeder, Animal Trainer and Tamed Animal chain are:
Beavers, Deer, Guinea Pigs, Kangaroo, Parrots, Poultry, Rabbit, Sea Lion&Seal, Sheep, Walrus
Beavers have Fur Farm.
Deer (Kangaroo/Poultry/Sheep) have Herd - Deer (Kangaroo/Poultry/Sheep).

Animals with any of those above (ATC = Animal Tamer Complex, Stable has two upgrades at later stages):
Bison: Tamed Bison <- ATC + Herd - Bison + Enclosure - Exotic Herbivorous + Stable
Cow: Tamed Cattle <- ATC + Cow Farm + Enclosure - Exotic Herbivorous (Herd - Cow exists outside chain)
Donkey: Tamed Donkey <- ATC + Donkey Farm + Stable (Herd - Donkey and Mule Trainer exists outside chain)
Llama: Tamed Llama <- ATC + Llama Farm + Stable (Herd - Llama and Llama Trainer exists outside chain. Alpaca Farm needs Llama Farm or Herd - Llama)
Mammoth: Tamed Mammoth <- ATC + Myth Effect Paleolithic Mammoth (Means can't build where myth itself where was placed) + Stable (Herd - Mammoth exists outside chain)
Pig: Tamed Wild Boar <- ATC + Pig Farm + Enclosure - Exotic Herbivorous (Herd - Pig exists outside chain)

Finished chains:
Camel: Tamed Camel <- ATC + Camel Trainer + Stable; Camel Trainer <- Camel Farm OR Central Breeder - Camel OR Herd - Camel.
Elephants: Tamed Elephant <- ATC + Elephant Trainer + Stable; Elephant Trainer <- Elephant Farm OR Central Breeder - Elephant OR Herd - Elephant.
Horse: Tamed Horse <- ATC + Horse Trainer + Stable; Horse Trainer <- Horse Farm OR Central Breeder - Horse OR Herd - Horse.

Guinea Pigs, Rabbits, Poultry and Sheep definitely should have Tamed Animals.
Donkey/Horse Breeding Pairs have slightly different chains.

---------------------------------
Central Breeders: Horse/Camel/Elephant

Herds (unbuildable): Bison, Camel, Cow, Deer, Donkey, Elephant, Horse, Kangaroo, Llama, Mammoth, Pig, Poultry, Sheep.
No herd: Beavers, Guinea Pigs, Parrots, Rabbit, Sea Lion&Seal, Walrus.

Farms (buildable): Llama/Alpaca (Llama), Fur (Beavers), Camel, Cow/Oxen (Cow)/Yak (Cow), Donkey, Duck/Goose/Turkey (Poultry+Apple/Olives/Wheat), Elephant, Sheep/Goat (Sheep), Horse, Pig, Reindeer (Deer - Cold climate).
No farm: Bison, Guinea Pigs, Kangaroo, Mammoth, Parrots, Poultry (No "standalone" farm), Rabbit, Sea Lion&Seal, Walrus.

Animal Trainer: Buffalo (Cow - Oxen Farm or Buffalo Herd), Camel, Elephant, Horse, Llama, Mule (Donkey)
No (regular) trainer: Beavers, Bison (Buffalo Trainer could be used here), Deer, Guinea Pigs, Kangaroo, Mammoth, Parrots, Pig, Poultry, Rabbit, Sea Lion&Seal, Sheep, Walrus.

Tamed Animal: Bison, Camel, Cattle (Cow), Donkey, Elephant, Horse, Llama, Mammoth, Wild Boar (Pig).
No tamed animal: Beavers, Deer, Guinea Pigs, Kangaroo, Parrots, Poultry, Rabbit, Sea Lion&Seal, Sheep, Walrus.

Sea Lion&Seal, Walrus and Mammoth could have Central Breeder in alt timelines.
Guinea Pigs, Rabbits, Parrots, Poultry and Sheep seemed to be completely forgotten.
As for Beavers, Bison, Deer and Kangaroo I'm not sure if Central Breeder could be regular or part of Alt Timeline (Megafauna Domestication).

Animal Trainer or something like that could be requirement for Tamed Animal.
Animal Trainer could require Farm or Herd or Central Breeder or few more animal related buildings - essentially be OR requirement merger.

I changed animal farm and trainer naming convention, so now they are much easier find in pedia.

I've started a new spreadsheet for this Here. Any of us can work on it, comment on it, etc. It's to show us what we need to work on and to what elements need some discussion. It's already brought up one for me, which is what we should be naming Herd buildings - though I'll need some information on some things before I get a finalized concept to propose in full.

 

[raxo2222]

I found out there is multiple wild and subdued units, that can end up placing Fur Farm - source of Beavers, but it is unlocked in Renaissance at Free Artistry.
Some of them can be used as source of pelts.

For Beavers I listed subdued animals (and wild animals where you can get those from), that can place Fur Farm - source of Beavers.

There is world wonder at end of Information era, that gives ALL plant and animal map resources - Species Recovery Center
It was missing 3 plant or animal resources, I added those.

Generally I list animals, that are used to provide its map resource.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Ok, but I'm asking for how you would go about using the bonus placing side of it.

Probably around 1 or 2 of my best cities. Then use the Animal Tamer building to send out the Tamed Animal units. If the placement of the resource gave a good enough boost to a city tile then maybe more than to 2 of my best cities.

 

[raxo2222]

There is Parrot Aviary, but it doesn't provide Parrot resource.
So this building works like Farm, but is buildable by multiple subdued animals.

There IS Guinea Pig Breeder, it is like Farm buildings too, it has also 4 other flavors of it with secondary vicinity - Barley/Corn/Wheat/Rice in addition to just with guinea pigs.
It doesn't have any subdued animals, that can build it though.

Duck/Turkey Farm can be built by Subdued Duck/Turkey.
Reindeer farm can be built by three flavors of subdued deer.

 

[Thunderbrd]

There is Parrot Aviary, but it doesn't provide Parrot resource.
So this building works like Farm, but is buildable by multiple subdued animals.

There IS Guinea Pig Breeder, it is like Farm buildings too, it has also 4 other flavors of it with secondary vicinity - Barley/Corn/Wheat/Rice in addition to just with guinea pigs.
It doesn't have any subdued animals, that can build it though.

Duck/Turkey Farm can be built by Subdued Duck/Turkey.
Reindeer farm can be built by three flavors of subdued deer.

You can see where I was struggling to show these cross-animal building interactions in the spreadsheet so if you can help me to show that there in a simple way that'd be awesome. It would also be very helpful to note which buildings are giving a source of the bonus and which ones don't and what their current prereqs are so if we need to expand to using more collumns for that then that's what it's for.

 

[raxo2222]

You can see where I was struggling to show these cross-animal building interactions in the spreadsheet so if you can help me to show that there in a simple way that'd be awesome. It would also be very helpful to note which buildings are giving a source of the bonus and which ones don't and what their current prereqs are so if we need to expand to using more collumns for that then that's what it's for.

All Herds are giving animal resource and all Farms do not.
Farm can but doesn't have to be built by Subdued/Tamed animals.

As for Poultry it looks like its generic bird resource, as if instead of cows/pigs/sheep/horse/donkey/camel we had single livestock resource.

 

[Thunderbrd]

All Herds are giving animal resource and all Farms do not.

So those in the Herds column (which we do not - probably should not even - have to call a herd necessarily) are:
*Required to be constructed by an animal unit, subdued or tamed
*Provide the resource
*Add some local yield/commerce bonuses

Those in the Farms column (which definitely should not all be named Farms though it's a convention for now) are:
*Constructed and qualified to be built due to vicinity access to that resource
*Do not provide the resource
*Adds local yield/commerce bonuses

Is this accurate?



THANK YOU for helping with the animal unit type names. It might be helpful to put the BUILDING_ type names in the building slots as well. 5 versions of Guinnea Pig Breeders? sheesh

 

[raxo2222]

So those in the Herds column (which we do not - probably should not even - have to call a herd necessarily) are:
*Required to be constructed by an animal unit, subdued or tamed
*Provide the resource
*Add some local yield/commerce bonuses

Those in the Farms column (which definitely should not all be named Farms though it's a convention for now) are:
*Constructed and qualified to be built due to vicinity access to that resource
*Do not provide the resource
*Adds local yield/commerce bonuses

Is this accurate?

Yes.

 

[JosEPh_II]

@Raxxo,
So now in a game when you have a ore deposit and the city it is in, when you get metallurgy, can build the Ore mine, then forge, then the ore smelter. But if you try to build the ore smelter in another city after the original city has built one you can't. But if the original city the ore is a resource for does not build the Smith then you can build Only 1 in the city of your choice, like your Capital.

Why was smelters and smith's changed like this? Why are we now limited to just one smelter and smith per type of ore? And when do the National Smelters come into play? Or are they gone now?

 

[Thunderbrd]

But if you try to build the ore smelter in another city after the original city has built one you can't. But if the original city the ore is a resource for does not build the Smith then you can build Only 1 in the city of your choice, like your Capital.

That is correct. A normal smelter (non-national) has a vicinity requirement. That's what differs it from a national smelter. At this stage of the game, you can only transport ore so far. And once you can transport ore farther, only one source of smelting is even absolutely necessary to get ingots which give you access to building the Smiths in any city in your trade network and therefore to generate Wares which is the end need for units and buildings that require the metal usually.

Why was smelters and smith's changed like this?

This was Hydro's original design and it is intended to show the difficulty early on in moving ore great distances. VERY long debates and huge, many commenter discussions boiled things down to this final design being acceptable to all motives involved.

Why are we now limited to just one smelter and smith per type of ore?

You can build the Smith anywhere you have access to the Ingots. IF that is more limited than it shouldn't be, such as if it has become a vicinity prereq recently, then ingots should be changed back to a normal bonus prereq for Smiths.

You should be able to trade for Ingots (but those even more difficult to have excess of than the ore itself because of the vicinity prerequisite on smelters) and thus be able to immediately construct the smiths in every city, making wares potentially frequent so you might want to try to trade for wares if you're having trouble getting the metal needed.

You aren't limited to just one smelter... just limited to the basic smelters being right in the cities where the ore is being produced (which is quite normal to RL actually) and you are given the National ones for access to longer range out ore - the only problem there is that it takes quite a few techs later til you can get those.

This has on more than one occasion forced me as a player to beeline for one of the techs that enables the National Refineries. (Road Building or Seamanship IIRC but Raxxo might be able to correct me on the exact techs.)

Not so bad design really - kinda fun. For a guy like you who packs your cities in, if you have the metal anywhere in your nation it should be within vicinity of some city so it shouldn't be a problem to get wares pretty early. It can certainly play a role in how you plan your city placement and in forcing trades to be an answer. I wouldn't have had iron in our main MP game to build the strongest units with against Spirictum if it hadn't been for Koshling trading it to me in ingot form so my National Iron Smelter could function. That iron I had just earned was in a city he took from me early on so I was a bit freaked out about that at first.