another hof spacerace start

@ sun tzu wu:

thanks for your tips, i will look into the kremlin path a bit deeper. have to admit i never used the kremlin for beefed whips before...

@ gkey:

concerning your dotmap:
settling on the sugar 3e of capital isnt a good move, because it´s the only sugar not under jungle. better to settle on the sugger 3 from the one you mentioned (or any other sugar under jungle, you might find more of them if exploring a bit more), because you also get +1 food AND you can farm the sugar you mentioned for a city with 5+ food (same as a riverside rice). also, you should consider the borderpops of your capital for any settling decisions, because the sugar you mentioned will become your territory soon anyways, so you can also settle a city to have it in the outer bfc and still working it immediately (to get other stuff into the inner bfc, like hills or other strat. ressources)

settling on the ph 1 w of northern gold gives you an extra hammer. but a city there will never have food, because the capital will always need max. food to keep growing and working the 2 gold (so you cant really share the fps on a longterm basis). same goes for the cows, the second helper city (the one you marked costal) will need them.
if you settle on the jungle-sugar 41 from southern gold, you have the same effect:
you can work one gold in the beginning (because you dont have any other plots to work). this allows the capital to grow faster with only 1 gold AND the city has an extra food on it´s city plot (same effect as ph, but better longterm because more food). this city will also have bananas for later, so it will be a really strong city with +6 food (same as wet corn).

the 3rd city you have marked costal. i was thinking about the same spot. because it will be a decent/great costal city for later. but then i decided to place it 2 from your maker, making it still a good longterm city with only 2 costal tiles (one of which can be worked by the first helper city even) BUT having a much higher shorterm value:
placing it 2 from your marker allows this city to share the second gold from the capital, giving the capital the possibility to really grow fast with both golds worked from helper cities. and since early in the game you will reasearch at 100% or at 0% switching both gold to both helper cities each time you have research at 0% will result exactly in the same ammount of gold you accumulate (no money multipliers) but your capital will grow really, really fast. and when you switch research back to 100% both gold go back to capital, capital gets 75% bonus on research (academy+library) AND is much bigger and therefore can work more cottages (and generate even more research) as if you would have grown slowly working one or even both gold.

-> hope this helps, that was my thinking about the dotmap and the basis for my decision making (no idea if it is right or ideal, or even wrong, but at least i was thinking somthing when settling, and executing some sort of plan, no:lol:)
 
Due to oracled CS, beelined Calendar and plenty of workers both cities are going to be fine without delay IMO. No food shortage or bad tiles worked.
I would not settle that far into jungle like you did though. Why not let Isa to clear it?
 
@ gkey:

7 workers seem a lot, but i was gunning for max. cities and max. food at 1000 BC. and now looking at 7 workers for 7 cities, 4 of which are in the middle of the jungle, 7 workers suddenly dont seem that much any more. so i wanted to save every workertun i could (i dont micro a lot in normal games, but if i decide to mircro, i do it quite excessively... ...so all weird markers you see in the screens and the saves are prebuilds to save every single worker turn when moving from a->b)

additionally, i wanted as much food as i could get, so i wanted to have all bananas and sugar tiles worked around 1000 BC. every bit counts, because the plan to have 20+ cities and 3-4 ais dead at 1 AD still stands.

with grans up in all cities and forges up in 2-3 turns, i hope to have an army ready around 800-700 BC of 10-12 units, axes, phants and cats.

so every bit of food is needed and i will have to go totally berserk with the whip. aditionally, with 7 cities, i can put 2 cities on the crucial wonders once the innitial army is out (hg for mor whips, health and GI points in the right city + the apo for the right religion). basically all other early wonders can be captured because the effect stays the same, so why building them...

...

my thinking behind this was basically quite simple, having a city with 6+ food and a gran 1000 BC is better then capturing said city around 700-500 BC, because it will take another 5-7 turns (depending on anarchy and buildings said city has) untill it gets somewhat productive.

so we are talking about 20 turns or more where you can put an excess of 6+ food into whips... ...which are 4 phants or cats per city. i hope this effect to snowball into a very fast warring with 2 or more armies... ...but we will see, no idea if i´m right or not.

and the ai might settle into the other direction, so it might even result in more cities in total (at least in theory)

...

actually, im quite curious about the next 2-3 turnsets, because they might decide the course of the game (if army buildup and warring turns out like planned or not)
 
Played this till reached Paper and got world maps. Can not force myself to deal with all these islands. Hope you have enough motivation for that. :)
 
I'm shadowing too, although I don't know much about space games, HOF type play, and will no doubt do many many things inefficiently (like missing out on the circumnavigation bonus due to not paying close enough attention... :shifty:)

Anyway, snaaty your opening was stronger than mine, but here is a screenshot from my first attack:

Spoiler :
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Archerpult. :hammer:
 
1080 bc at your capital 104 beakers.
i count apprx 41. plus %75 by academy and library.total must be around 70 ????????
 
just played another turnset, bringing me to 750 BC and ready to start the war. this was the turnset i invested the most preplayplanning into, so for those interested and because i already have written it down here my whipping plan to get the needed units out and to the front for t85:

Nanj: t84 ov whip phant (2pop), -> stable for second wave
Cheng:t83 ov whip phant (2pop), t85 whip phant (1pop) -> apo
Guanz: t74 ov whip forge (2pop), t76 baracks with ov, t78 ov whip axe (1pop), t81 cata ov whip (2pop), t 83 pant (1pop) -> stable for second wave
Shang: t73 axe ov whip (1pop), t77 forge ov whip (2pop+1chop), t78 cata with ov, t81 phant whip (2pop) -> stable for second wave
Xian: t75 forge whip (2pop), t78 cata whip ov (2pop) t80 phant whip (1pop), t83 phant whip (2pop) -> aqueduct + HG (wonder)
Beij: t76 forge whip (1pop), t77 finish baracks, then 2 cats every 2 turns (79+81), then cats every 2.5 turns (84 for first wave, rest will be late, so second wave)
Hangz: will be too late for first wave -> go stable before phants, second wave

Research timing:
currency 3t t76, construction 2t t78, hbr 2-3t t80-81 (should be t80 because of xian)
-> catas from t78 on
-> phants from t80 on (t81 if not enough research and only 3 phants at the front, xian not enough food to regrow in 3 turns, so second phant 1t late

Front/Army:
cheng 6 catas, 2 axes, 4 phants (or 3), attack t85 with 3 phants joining later (or 4)

...

the writeup and some pics of how the turnset went i will post tomorrow (didnt get all units to the front as planned, because some whips came later then planned due to missing pop to whip. mistake was that i didnt calculate growth for each city in detail, just did some rough estimations and mainly the smaller cities (the ones without pop-reserve) had to delay some whips)...
 
OK, here is my run, up to turn 40 (2400BC):

Spoiler :

Worker-stealing went very well on this super-crowded map. Isabella was first followed by Lincoln and Peter. Gandhi hated me for declaring on his "friends", so no reason not to steal some workers from him too. And of cause Peter - closest AI with no "friends"!

7 workers with 2 more stolen from Peter this turn.

I stick to my dot map with exception of 3rd city had been settled 1S of sugar. With such great workforce sugar been farmed in 2 turns. City worked floodplain cottage for capital during these 2 turns, 2:food: for 2:commerce: tradeoff and once I will get Calendar (high priority tech) city will have 8:food: surplus on sugar tiles only, not counting floodplains.

Spoiler :
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Oracle CS is clear goal here, I beeline Math, start prechop forests. Growing capital on warriors meanwhile. Will chop 3 more settlers once Math in.

Spoiler :
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Shanghai will be somewhat food poor later on, but now it's a great helper.

Spoiler :
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I plan to farm everything and get Heroic Epic here later on.

 

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Next part up to turn 67 (1320 BC):

Spoiler :

Turn 63 1480 BC: CoL in 1, Oracle in 3.

Spoiler :
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In fact I was considering to let Oracle go. My tech rate is very good and growing every turn, I can self research CS in some 6 turns later on. So I was thinking right after Math to get library in capital while teching HBR and get me some more cities from AIs.
Changed my mind in the end. Going to be late Oracle, but AI's are dead slow with wonders, so it will be OK. No forests left to chop Oracle, I starve capital while building it with helpers working floodplain cottages and grow.

I have not revolted in to Slavery yet btw, waiting to make 2 civics switch once CS will be in (3 turns).
Spoiler :
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Chain irrigation will fill fix Shanghais food problem in a few turns.


Spoiler :
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Great Scientist for academy in capital in 10.

None of AIs got Alpha yet! :(. I don't really need it that much, but still. First to Alpha was Isabella, who hates me. I can trade with Mansa, Elizabeth and Darius only, rest AIs hate me.

Finally on turn 67 (1320BC) Mansa got Alpha.
IIRC I will get Alpha, Masonry, IW, Monarchy, Monotheism and backfill small ones during next 2 turns.

I am going for HBR now, may be would be better to go Calendar first, workers cottaged almost everything (got 1 more from Gandhi meanwhile, so I have 10 workers with 6 cities), chain irrigate Shanghai.

Spoiler :
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Here is the question:
Finally switched into slavery, when would be right to whip granary in Xian? (And should I whip it?).

Spoiler :
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I whipped it next turn with 29 overflow. Kossin, I hope you read this, whipping granary applies some weird math, so I am not sure was it right time to do this and was it worth to whip these cottages at all.
 

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Last part up to turn 95(500BC):

Spoiler :


HBR and Calendar in. GS - academy in capital. Whipped last granaries, getting barracks, stables and HAs now.

Spoiler :
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Here, where Snaaty's dot map might be better. Plantations take time to build even with 10 workers, so most of cities have less then 6:food: surplus and work floodplains cottages, I will whip them anyway, waited for too long already.

I attack once I get first 6 HAs.

Spoiler :
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Going for Gandhi first, good capital (with Ivory) and second city (with pig + double gems). He teching fast and can be first to Feudalism. Next targets: Isabella, Lincoln and Peter. Isabella is strongest with 2 cities on hills, going to have catapults and war phants or maces by the time I attack her.

Spoiler :
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Gandhi got Theo, can bribe Mansa and others on me. I think I am ready even if they all decide to backstub me.

Plantations are finally done and Guangzhou blossoms.

Spoiler :
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HA rushes are very RNG dependable.
Spoiler :

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Odd are 70%+, city taken with 1 HA loss, I guess it could be worse.

Got MC, Aesthetics.

Spoiler :
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This one took me few minutes to decide. Accept and ensure she will not get bribed on me? But I am going to attack her soon. This 10 turn peace treaty might delay my attack. Rejected.

Delhi got reinforced.

Spoiler :
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Charge!

Spoiler :
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By the way I am not sure about my tech path. I could get Paper+Edu in some 15 turns. Yet I am milking GS in capital for errr bulb Philo-switch into Pacifism-get couple more Great Scientists-bulb Education? :rolleyes:
Spoiler :
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Now I think that was plain wrong. This map has crazy BPT potential. Despite all whips I could get BCs Oxford here. Stagnate growth of my capital instead... :sad:
Got GA from Music though and getting HE in Shanghai.

Spoiler :
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Was not worth it IMO. No marble for wonders.

Turn 94 (525BC). Heh!
Spoiler :
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Surprisingly... :rolleyes:
Thanks for sparing me -1 diplohit for attacking you sweety!

No idea what did he bribe her with btw:

Spoiler :
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Meanwhile

Spoiler :
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:dubious:

He is not dead... :mad: Was enough to settle some island... :shake:
OK dude, say thanks to my laziness.

Spoiler :
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Is it good/bad/so-so with spaceship victory on this map? No idea.

Last turn 95 (500BC):

More fun:

Spoiler :
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Rejected for same reason.

And some more:

Spoiler :
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Dude, what were you thinking declaring on me with your 2 cities empire?

Paper in.

Trade maps: Spoiler of islands around. Not that big deal though, usual Big&Small mess:

Spoiler :
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Um... I don't know, what to tech
I don't know if vassaling Gandhi was bad
I don't know how to deal with all these islands
I don't know what to do next.
I do know I will eliminate Isabella, Lincoln and Peter in no time.
Looks like it's time to settle all these islands. BTW Lincoln got GLH, thank you in advance!


I decide to stop here. No 20 cities, sorry Snaaty ;), but there are not too many anyway. You really risking to hit domination if get 20 cities on mainland. That going to be headache IMO.

Question: Vassals in Space Ship game - good/bad/may be? Some tricks will be required once Sushi will get you all that culture. You can control it somehow (gift cities as last resort), but how can you control your vassal?

Edit:
Spoiler :
Forgot to mention I don't know what religion to pick. My Confucianism is dominant - 36%, but I got Buddhist shrine for 16 gpt. So need to decide on religion and spread it.


Not sure if I will continue. Many aspects to decide before anyway. But situation is very promising, no doubt. Anyone want to take this from here? ;) I think this can be space ship launch prior 1600s.
 

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@ gkey:

thanks for posting the writeups and the save.

...

seems your ha rush was really, really effective. how many ha´s did you loose in total vs. gandhi? shame it didnt come to my mind. after trading for phants i was so focussed on elepults that i never thought about has (and since i traded horses away for phants:crazyeye:...)

...

i´m at 750 BC in my go, and will try to catch up with your game tonight/tomorrow night, so we can compare what we did different/the same. i will have a look at your save once i cought up.

maybe you want to continue a few turns more? say up to 1 AD? that would be a great next checkpoint. I also dont think you need to settle most islands, these with 2 or more seafood and some with 1 seafood should do i guess, better might be controlling most of the main landmass (like killing 5 or 6 of the 7 ais).

...

letting gandhi live like you did might also be the ideal choice, because like that you can gift away island cities if you need to get rid of some land.

...

concerning vassals:
i dont know really, but my gut feeling says no, because you get half of their land added AND a diplo hit with the other nations for each vassal. and since the ai uses his land terrible in later stages of the game, i guess the land is better used by yourself

...

@ doshin:

great you joined. looking at your screen, it seems you have settled a city more then i did (you have 8, no?). it would be interesting to see a dotmap of your settling pattern. maybe you also have a save around 500 BC?

...

this is also the first hof start for me, so not much more experience and the same mistakes can be expected from my side, so just keep it comming...
 
@Snaaty

I think you can renegotiate horse for phants trade - make it copper for phants. That's what I did.

Lost HAs:
Spoiler :
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Lucky indeed, only 1 HA per city. But again all attacks had 70+% odds.
 
Just for comparison sake. Played fast without microing at all. Although I am bad at this stage of game. What to do with workers? What to build? Whip / not whip?
We tend to focus on early game and I got some level in it I suppose :). Mid game is kind of important too? Especially if it's not just a prelude to swift cuirassiers rush.

So here is my sloppy attempt up to 250AD:

Spoiler :

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Have to admit I've never seen ~600:science: per turn in BCs before this. :lol:
And that before Oxford (in 4).
Lib Medicine around 500AD seem to be possible. I'd go for Mining first though. We seriously need more production here.
 

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Very impressive play GKey!

Whipping post-Sushi is still a viable option so it's a great source of production... it all depends on resources available of course.

Regarding land domination limit... if you've read WastinTime's highscore walkthrough some months ago... he actually gives some inland cities (to AI) in favor of island cities for total population. It might not be as good here because you need a lot more production than a sushi-milking contest but it's something that could work.

Granary:
You want to have 17 food once the granary completes. So best time to whip was when the size 4 city was at 11/28 food. That gives max food output. If you're afraid of adding too many hammers, just queue up something ahead of the granary.
 
@snaaty

Empire at 500 BC:

Spoiler :
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Tianjin, in the far West, was a v. late, kinda junky city. But I am conquering in a counterclockwise manner (Peter ---> Lincoln ---> Izzy) so it will soon have access to FPs and a Grassland Cow. In the meantime, I decided that it can simply alternate with Chengdu in working the Gems, while both whip infrastructure.

Save from 500 BC attached. You picked a good date: my all-powerful Archerpult army had just engaged in a monumental struggle to take Moscow, falling short at the last hurdle:

Spoiler :
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:sad:

Tech situation:

Spoiler :
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The plan was and is to capture Moscow, and then use the plunder to part research MC (to trade for Aesthetics). Warring on a shoestring budget has delayed Forges by one turn.
 

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And look the guy with a pixelated caravan avatar who wanted advices from me (and couldn't give any to me) and getting some insane BPT I never was able to reach in any of my previous normal speed game.

BTW, I fiddled with some lost HoF saves with the few time I had today and I noticed how bad rushing AI early is. Far better to settle yours for an economical buildup first. Another point towards let the AI does the job tenents.

I shall thanks Snaaty for making me notice this enormous blunder how mine I kept repeating all the time.

this is also the first hof start for me, so not much more experience and the same mistakes can be expected from my side, so just keep it comming...

Yeah sure. :lol: You already play better than the median (notice I did not use average term) of best HoF players.
 
And look the guy with a pixelated caravan avatar who wanted advices from me (and couldn't give any to me) and getting some insane BPT I never was able to reach in any of my previous normal speed game...
Tachy, I have never seen such insane BPT myself.
Why don't you try this map yourself? It has absolutely ridiculous :science: potential.
 
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