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another hof spacerace start

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by Snaaty, Mar 16, 2013.

  1. GKey

    GKey Emperor

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    I am really stumbled by question how Wastin got his results both maintaining huge tech rate and been able to get considerable force from only 2 cities. Second city with double gold is cool but it's still only 2 cities (and he saved all forests to chop OU in 1 turn w/o stone :crazyeye:). Also it's Stone - not Marble is hard to reach on this map, no need to go for Darius IMHO.

    Conquering Darius instead of Mansa.... Mansa does have stone. And his cities open clear and fast access to the islands. The question is do you actually want these islands?
    We want 1pop/turn growth? ~20 Sushi resources are enough for that in most of our cities, no need to pay huge maintenance for settling islands. I am actually chocked you been able to maintain 100% slider during spread phase. That's really impressive!

    My guess delaying Sci Meth was worth it, but more importantly you been at war with AIs who were enough to escape to islands and postponed you settling them instead. These AIs actually did you a favor. I could not open my game for last 3 weeks, from memory:


    Early SM was really a bummer, was nowhere near yours 2800 beakers per turn. managed to lib Medicine though.
    Got Sushi in 580AD having WS in Delhi same turn
    Had 14 island cities
    After Medicine research went Communism (Start Kremlin), Astro ( wasted around 1200 gold to upgrade ships), RP, Steam Power, Steel (wanted IW, probably a mistake)

    Stopped there around 680AD, could not decide if go for AL and whip factories/CPs or RailRoad and start Mining ASAP. Also 25 turns GA ended (another bummer) and I was in CS. Was 2 turns from finishing Kremlin, planning to fire up 3rd GA, revolt into Slavery and whip-whip-whip.

    BUT! At 680AD if I remember correctly I was losing 800Gpt with 100% slider (40% break even) and I had only around 1800bpt with 100%. Even 1700 gold trade missions could fund my research for 2 turns only. Upcoming GA would help of cause, but not up to the level I saw in your game.

    Dunno, may be with early Sushi + Kremlin I could catch up later on. Hopefully I will eventually grab my PC with last save and check it out.
     
  2. Snaaty

    Snaaty Deity

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    ok, i finally ended this game.

    after the really (and i mean REALLY) timeconsuming part from 500 AD on to 1000 AD, with spreading 2 corps, checking all cities each turn to avoid financial collaps, GP-planning, settler and ship moving, unit moving and everything, the last part of the game played really fast.

    i have to admit here that i gave up on checking all cities every turn for the usuall spy hired by the ai and simply decided to ignore them (ugh, clicking through 50 cities... ...i tried, but after 2 turns or so, i gave up and handed the command over the specialits to the ai)

    ship launched 1240 AD and i was impressed how fast reseach really went up in the end. the estimation wastin gave of around 6000 beakers withing 10 turns was spot on, so:goodjob:

    for details see spoiler:

    Spoiler :

    from 1000 AD to 1100 AD game took up speed again, i managed to play these 10 turns in 3 turnsets. micro was getting more and more meh, but well we got to 6000 beakers at 1100 AD in the end.

    1100 AD:
    12-1100ov.JPG

    i mismanaged gp production again and had to drop out of GA for 7 turns and the last GA will last like 5 turns longer then the game lasted (if you consider the launching the end), but well.

    timing GA´s better would surely have gained another turn or two for endgame i assume.

    ...

    1200 AD:
    12-1200ov.JPG

    research stagnated around 6000 beakers. couldnt get much more out of my empire, but it was enough. i was planning on running another trade mission via a GM, to gain a few thousand beakers more, but the GM turned out to be a... ...GA at 2 % odds from the NE. so it got used for the GA and now we ended up with a GE hanging around in the capital:lol:

    i captured a few from daris cities in the end, because i could and had the tanks to do so, then gifted them back because i would have tripped over the dom. limit. would have been better to have saved the hammers on the tanks (like 10 or so) and have invested them into research.

    it really was a mistake to invade dari, because even after gifting him his cities back (and some english ones too), he stayed cautious and eventually switched into emancipation... ...and some 15 spies were needed to switch him back......at 67% odds each, and i lost all but one and it too like 7 turns or so, and most of the big cities had 2-4 angry faces during that period.

    if i wouldnt have invaded, i could have kept him out of emancipation forever, making him switch his civics 1 by 1 every 5 turns...

    while trying to swich daris civics, it also occured to me that i acually would have had enough spoints to steal rifling (or even combustion if i would have fuelled his lategame teching a bit) from him... ...oh well there did go another 1-2 turns

    the final GA then helped to get the beakers close to 7000, but i messed up again with the spaceship production and couldnt get the last parts finished in time because i had not enough spaceship cities designed (no research labs and such, because i was basically running most cities on autopilot at that point). 6-7 spaceship cities werent enough, should have used more to build the first parts (the cheap ones you need 5 of).

    so instead of launching 1230, it was 1240 in the end (was done with research 1220).

    ...

    after the spaceship was done, thanks to building research, i managed to get research up big time:goodjob:
    12-1240ov.JPG

    almost 8500 beakers, me heroe (not that it would matter anything, but well)

    ...

    shot from the spaceship:
    12-launch.JPG

    ...

    all in all i think i learned a lot during this game and if going for the ideal map, settings and play, i would guess it should be very well possible to shave off another 10-15 turns of the final date, making a launch during 1100 or even a few turns before 1100 possible.

    launching pre 1000 AD under this settings (normal speed, average leader, small map) i dont think is possible, at least not for me.

    thanks for reading.
    Snaaty

    ...

    save attached

     

    Attached Files:

  3. shakabrade

    shakabrade Praise Vivec!

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    The most impressive game I've seen so far. :goodjob:

    And I really appreciate Lock Modified Assets. There should be more of these...
     
  4. WastinTime

    WastinTime Deity Supporter

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    Very nice game. I'm sure my game would not beat that unless I went back to when I built the Oxford and doubled my military/expansion from that point. I'd rather start a fresh game than beat this one to death. The shift from marathon to normal speed was a difficult adjustment. Should have made a stop at Epic speed first.
     
  5. kossin

    kossin Deity

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    Very impressive, as usual, Snaaty :bowdown:
     
  6. GKey

    GKey Emperor

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    Fantastic game as expected.

    So how did you proceed with corps? Spread Sushi in just a few cities? Did tremendous tech rate came from sushi? Looking back do you still think Mining first was better?

    What's optimal number of cities you needed for fastest SS parts construction?

    Just a couple of questions...:mischief:
     
  7. Snaaty

    Snaaty Deity

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    1. corps:

    i did spead mining to all mainland cities and a few islands (more the planned, because i somehow ended up with more execs as planned:lol:)

    all cities that got mining got suhi, because the infra simply was already there.

    all beakers above 3000 came from sushi, because all cities had to build wealth (see below), so sushi brought 3000 beakers / turn.

    ...

    it might be considered to skip sushi completely, because it costs around 40 gold per city + spreading costs of 120 (gold + hammers) in each city. with 35-40 cities you spread it to, thats around 1500 gold/turn + innitial costs of around 5000 gold. building research right away instead of wealth will translate all this into beakers right away, and with 3000 base beakers from conventional research we are looking at 4500 beakers + 5000 beakers banked due to financing the expansion. compared to the 6000 beakers we managed to get from sushi from 1100 to 1220, we are looking only at 12 turns where sushi did really help, which are 18000 beakers. now delaying sm a bit and getting 4500 instead of 3000 beakers from 1000 AD on, already will equal it out without sushi.

    ...

    2 main arguments for sushi:

    - easy to get the 4. ga due to lots of specialits and therefore gps
    - essential spaceship cities are able to grow in time to max. pop and therefore to max. prod for the spaceship production

    ...

    sushi first:

    i dont see how it could keep up. without mining you simply dont generate enough wealth to pay for sushi, so both corps need to be spread anyways, and with sushi first you fall back in beakers drastically during the spreading phase, which is somewhat 20 turns, due to lowering the slider and earlier sm. true, you will have more specialists earlier, but the total research wont increase earlier, because getting the slider back to 100% will only be possible after spreading mining is finished and said cities have factories and cplants up.

    and total research is capped on this map around 6000-7000 beakers due to health and happy caps, so research from sushi isnt growing endlessly.

    now assuming that right after finishing to spread mining your research jumps up to 6000 beakers, which would be around 1000 AD, the difference to mining first is only 15000 beakers in total for 10 turns (mining first starts with 3000 beakers at 1000 AD and goes up to 6000 beakers up to 1100, which are 10 turns and an average of aprox. 4500 beakers / turn).

    and it is highly likely that suhi first has lost more then said 15000 beakers during the spreading phase (earlier sm, communism is needed, lower slider...) which last for around 20 turns (which would be around 700 beakers / turn, so to keep up with mining first research needs to stay around 1600-2000 beakers / turn during the spreading phase with suhi first on this map)

    ...

    spaceship construction:

    more then 6 (that i can say from experience now:lol:)

    i guess it needs some planning to finish 1 turn after the last tech is reseached. what i would do if i would replay is to set 5 cities to build the first part you need 5 of (can be crappy ones), then to have 5 strong cities building the other part you need 5 of in 3 turns each, and you best 2 cities finishing the last 2 parts in 2 (1200 hammers, maybe capital) and 1 (1000 hammers, iw city with ov) turn.
     
  8. iggymnrr

    iggymnrr Deity

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    Really nice game. I understand the logic of the above quote. However, maybe I'm wrong, but I only count 13 parts. There should be 1 more expansive part and 2 cheap ones.
     
  9. Snaaty

    Snaaty Deity

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    you are right, i totally forgot about theses because they were finished fairly early in my game. since the 2 cheap ones are started early any city will do (you have 4-5 turns) and the most expensive one (2000 hammers, but double speed with some ressource) can be done in the IW city before starting the final part in the last turn to generate ov (here, you also have 4-5 turns). important is to get enough ov for getting the final part (1000 hammers) done in 1 turn.

    so in total, if the best, say 12-15, cities get labs it should be fine.
     
  10. iggymnrr

    iggymnrr Deity

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    I'm assuming that is the ecology part. It's the cheapest to get done in a turn thus allowing an extra turn for the rest.
     
  11. BornInCantaloup

    BornInCantaloup Agent of Chaos

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    Incredible finish... Not even 200 turns into the game :crazyeye: Congratulations!
    Now there won't be any cliffhangers, it's time to read the thread! 15 pages, only 15 pages but still 15... I'll probably need snacks. I'm sure it's a great read. I've scouted some posts already that were excellent.

    EDIT: *praise GKey, too!*: great supporting act, including valuable input and a proper shadow! [party]
     
  12. GKey

    GKey Emperor

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    EDIT: *praise GKey, too!*: great supporting act, including valuable input and a proper shadow! [party][/QUOTE]

    Hey, I am still alive!

    And may be one day grab my Civ PC and beat Snaaty's game to dust (shamelessly using all the info he provided). :lol:
     
  13. BornInCantaloup

    BornInCantaloup Agent of Chaos

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    I'm sure you are :goodjob:
    I haven't reached the later stages of this thread, yet. Read your shadow to around 500 BC and, true enough, you overdid Snaaty as far as worker steal is concerned (not that everything comes down to worker steal, far from it... but it gives one a very strong lever to act onto the game - so maybe you'd beat his game to dust - put otherwise: harvesting the map starts with worker steal).
    So I take it you couldn't complete your game, yet. Didn't know that. Maybe later :)
     

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