another hof spacerace start

Snaaty · Mar 21, 2013

@ doshin:

seems you have been really effective with archerpults so far :goodjob:

. if you manage to take moskow around 500 BC you already have a great position and might in fact get to 20 cities around 1 AD (need to reinforce your stack a bit i guess, to keep conquering)

concerning your techs:
why dont you trade away what you have to mansa? i wouldnt bother putting research into any tech i could trade for. just look at the game from gkey, 600 beakers at 1 AD :eek:

, so i wouldnt bother giving away any tech, since you will run away in tech anyway. i would even consider gifting techs to your "friend" ais on a regular basis, so they migth research something you can trade for in a timely manner, mainly mansa...

...

@ gkey:

your bpt seems incredible indeed :crazyeye:

... ...no idea if i can rival you there, your ha strategy seems to have brought you into a super position. if you really can get your first corp around 500 AD (and maybe the second one around 700 AD), just imagine your finishing date :cool:

... ...it might even be in the 1500th if you can get your teching up fast enough after the corps.

i will have a look at your save once i reached 1 AD. but just from judging from a short glance at your screens, your micro cant have been that bad...

...

@ tachy:

i´m really good at early game (i think i can say that). what comes after the innitial killing and buildup is the problematic part. there i´m sure i will need to call for your advice more the once (same goes for kossin i guess)

kossin · Mar 21, 2013

Snaaty said:
i´m really good at early game (i think i can say that). what comes after the innitial killing and buildup is the problematic part. there i´m sure i will need to call for your advice more the once (same goes for kossin i guess)

I'm the opposite. My early game is relatively weak :blush:

but I do well later on.

GKey · Mar 21, 2013

Uhu.... Now we only miss Duckweed come up and say he's weak late game.

Snaaty · Mar 21, 2013

since i want to have a look at your saves, i have to find the time to push ahead my game a bit. so here we start, with the first missing writeup

to 750bc (warfare preps finished):

Spoiler :

Doshin · Mar 21, 2013

Snaaty said:
@ doshin:

concerning your techs:
why dont you trade away what you have to mansa? i wouldnt bother putting research into any tech i could trade for. just look at the game from gkey, 600 beakers at 1 AD, so i wouldnt bother giving away any tech, since you will run away in tech anyway. i would even consider gifting techs to your "friend" ais on a regular basis, so they migth research something you can trade for in a timely manner, mainly mansa.

This is an interesting point. I've played on ahead, and I don't think that I used the AIs' tech capacity to their full advantage during this game, since I deliberately kept most of them backward. I ultimately wanted to Lib an impressive tech and there are three AIs here that will also target Lib: Mansa, Elizabeth, and Darius.

I think a really careful playthrough of this map would create several strong teching AIs, which are ripe to be crushed just before they hit a big military tech or Lib. A minor example. I notice that GKey was thinking about bulbing Philosophy in his game, but Mansa will automatically do this for you, if given the option. That saves one Great Scientist in theory. The trouble is that if Mansa has Philosophy, all of the teching AI will soon have Philosophy. This might mean that instead of Lib'ing Railroad, you can only Lib Steel (or whatever), which ultimately costs the player beakers in the long run. So you ideally want to have Mansa bulb Lib for you, but to also be in a position to conquer the four or so AI that might reach Lib before you.

It's a balancing act, and not one I am very skilled with. :lol:

I look forward to seeing the aftermath of the Elepult onslaught. One minor suggestion: I think you are overdoing the Stables (I count four in your plan?). Most of the Elephants will survive their battles and can then upgrade en route. Let's say that you have one Stable city that produces one Elephant in anticipation of your first attack. A Catapult can attack first, which may or may not die (odds are good on flatland). The Shock Elephant will then receive winning odds against a Spear. How many more Spears are you going to face during the first city attack? After that, if three Elephants win battles at 90% odds, you can upgrade three Elephants to Shock on the following turn (also decreasing the time needed to heal).

That's how I see it anyway. I don't like to offer you tips on how to war. :blush:

GKey · Mar 21, 2013

Yep, Mansa got me Philo while I was getting ready to bulb it. Agree regarding stables too. I had two of them and regret that. You need just couple of combat 2 phants, IMO. I would not promote phants chock btw. On defense they are strong enough with combat and on attack AI will chose defender accordingly to your promotions, chock phants will not get a chance to attack melee. That's from experience.

Looking forward for aftermath too!

Edit: Regarding tech trading. I don't see a point in advancing AI's too much. True, Mansa got me Philo, but I'd prefer him not to have it. This is not domination game, so AIs need to have 34% of land (ideally). That could be dangerous, so I agree with Doshin, better keep them backward from now on (and keep spamming most advanced units in HE city even when you finish warring just in case). For example I could trade CS to Mansa long ago, nope will not do that!

Ai's got not too many cities by now and tech slowly, so I don't think Lib race will be in danger though.

Gifting them techs? That's... interesting. Can be viable if you manage to trade something useful in the end, I would not do that though. That's IMO of cause.

Doshin said:
I think a really careful playthrough of this map would create several strong teching AIs, which are ripe to be crushed just before they hit a big military tech or Lib.

Not sure if I follow. You want them become advanced and then crash them to extort techs? May create a danger of domination, unless you will gift them their cities back. I think to leave Darius and Lis as they are right now. They hate me though for attacking their friends. Not sure how to proceed with diplo.

Also, I think we are already late with settling islands. This going to be very hard job. Tens of ships for workers missionaries and corp execs. When I think about logistic required for this... Makes me nervous. :lol:

vranasm · Mar 22, 2013

GKey said:
Also, I think we are already late with settling islands. This going to be very hard job. Tens of ships for workers missionaries and corp execs. When I think about logistic required for this... Makes me nervous.

more like disgusted with all that micro... the only reason why I prefer inland sea for space race and lazy SP attempts at noble :-D

GKey · Mar 22, 2013

vranasm said:
more like disgusted with all that micro... the only reason why I prefer inland sea for space race and lazy SP attempts at noble :-D

Are there enough resources for Sushi on inland sea map script? Or you are going SP path? That could very interesting to compare. (please tell me all this mess with corps is not really necessary!)

vranasm · Mar 22, 2013

GKey said:
Are there enough resources for Sushi on inland sea map script? Or you are going SP path? That could very interesting to compare. (please tell me all this mess with corps is not really necessary!)

on noble difficulty it's very close call between state property and corps.

just scroll best dates on noble standard (I think it is) iggy and pollina have there some great competition between themself and iggy is more on the SP side now.

I don't think that on Immortal SP is viable the same way as corps due to the increased tech costs through difficulty.

Where as on noble you need (let's say) 5-6k beakers for 1t/turn you would need on immortal 10k... and SP won't give you 10k, but can give you 5-6k beakers with big empire on inland sea.

Another good thing about noble is that you can be very quick to workshop spam because everything is cheaper and you can run caste because you don't need to whip for military.

Not sure which path has the upper hand now, but it is very very close between SP and corps on noble

Doshin · Mar 22, 2013

GKey said:
Not sure if I follow. You want them become advanced and then crash them to extort techs? May create a danger of domination, unless you will gift them their cities back. I think to leave Darius and Lis as they are right now. They hate me though for attacking their friends. Not sure how to proceed with diplo.

What I mean is, the player's tech capacity in this game is ludicrous. There is no way the human should lose Lib. The crucial challenge is to reach the desired tech as quickly as possible while expending the minimum amount of resources.

There are two broad tech paths. One gets you to Liberalism itself:

(1) Philosophy ---> Paper ---> Education

The other gets you to the desired tech. Let's say Medicine:

(2) Machinery ---> Guilds ---> Gunpowder ---> Chemistry ---> Astronomy ---> Scientific Method

The player ideally wants to encourage a trading partner, e.g. Mansa, to pursue tech path #1. As long as the player pursues a successful war after trading for Education, Mansa will not be able to tech Lib first or, for that matter, Economics (destroy Mansa completely, or vassal him).

The same principal then applies with the AI or AIs that go to Machinery/Guilds etc. When Scientific Method comes in, the player needs to take direct charge of the AI's teching, to stop them receiving the free Great Scientist or Great Spy.

Even after Lib, life is still much easier with one or two trading partners. If you don't care for Mining Inc., there's no immediate need to head to Steel and Railroad. So let an AI tech them for you and then backtrade for Physics and Communism.

---

So I guess my point is: advanced AIs are good, as long as the situation is under control. It is better to co-opt their resources than to go at everything alone, which is the big problem with throttling the immediate neighbors and then rushing the rest off the map. (Again, easier said than done :lol:

).

Snaaty · Mar 22, 2013

@ gkey@doshin:

good point about the stable (but comes too later, already built them all :lol:

))

concerning the frieds-ai:

i think helping them to tech up might bring in quite some beakers up to, say lib/banking (basically the techs doshin already posted). and with the lots of cities we gonna have (and all will need a courthouse) we will see their research in a reasonalby timeline, so i really think it will be usefull and with almost no risk.

i guess around 500 AD, we will tech that fast, that the ai wont be able to keep up anyways, so it´s really a midgame help we will get. and midgame seems to be the weakest part of the spacerace (at least in my opinion, after reading a bit what others did). there you really can loose or win turns.

...

after that, eliminating more ai´s seems best, maybe only leave the biggest ai alive.

...

concerining the islands and dom. limit:

i dont think i will bother settling them all. some with 2 or more seafood, some with seafood and metal. some with stuff we dont have, some close by with 1 seafood... ...i dont think settling more then 15 islands is worth it... ...this also will help staying below the dom.limit.

maybe even leave some ai alive on islands (gandhi has 1 settled already in my game), to gift away island cities if needed...

...

question to all:

btw. what do you think about the SoL? With enough mainland cities, it does contribute quite a lot, say around 250 beakers/turn, so getting it early might be good, no? would it be worth to go for it before corps or not?... ...libbing demo. around 250 AD seems possible i guess...

Doshin · Mar 22, 2013

The SoL is a good wonder, for sure, but pales in comparison to Sushi and the Kremlin on this map-script. With enough islands, Sushi allows your cities to instantly grow from size 12-13, 15-16, 20-21, and so on. The Kremlin lets you whip expensive infrastructure at two thirds of the cost. These should be prioritized before the SoL.

Besides, with Sushi and the Kremlin in place, you can whip the SoL several turns sooner (take that, Mother Liberty :whipped:

).

One small tip: if you choose to play with corps rather than SP, try to keep the AI away from Democracy for as long as possible. The Emancipation anger quickly stacks, especially when Fur and Ivory obsolete.

GKey · Mar 22, 2013

The more I look at this, the more I think gifting techs to AI's is actually not bad idea. Libbed Medicine around 600AD, completely forgot I need Corporations for Sushi.

Means I need Guilds, Banking, Nationalism, Constitution, Economics, Corporations. Lots of research that could be done by AI's if I'd bother to advance them.
OTOH Darius went for Education instead of usual AI's Guilds-Banking path.

Btw, after all this impressive research rate in BCs, now bpt stagnates around 800. More golden ages are needed. SoL can help, but detour into Democracy and building the wonder will take some 20 turns. I'd rather get Sushi first.

Snaaty · Mar 22, 2013

@ gkey:

have you built apo+sankore+spiral? i´m thinking they might be of great help too (but quite obviously another detour and lots of hammers...)

GKey · Mar 22, 2013

I ordered Gandhi to research Divine Right, it will take him very long though. Lis got AP in my religion and I got UoS in Shanghai. Since I beelined Medicine, I got SciMeth around 300AD, so no monasteries, yet I have 15 temples. Difference was negligible, I did not even notice it.

Now I think I'd better go Nationalism, Moscow got nice forests to be chopped into MoM and Taj (there is marble nearby). Then beeline Banking and Constitution seem to be good idea so you switch into Rep + Merc for free once Taj is in and tech Economics to switch into free market at the end of GA. Then getting Democracy and SoL is interesting option indeed.

Snaaty · Mar 22, 2013

there we go, up to 500BC (actually 475bc, because i played a turn more to finish music):

Spoiler :

Snaaty · Mar 22, 2013

comparing the 500 BC saves (gkey, doshin, snaaty)

@ doshin:

our saves at 500 bc are really quite similar. you will take mosow next turn i guess, giving you also 10 cities and an ai capital. i did trade more then you did, that´s why i have more techs, but if you would start to trade up with mansa, you would be as far down the tech tree as i am. overall research with 230 (yours) to 260 (mine) is also quite equal. what shows a bit is the placement of the helper cities. my capital is a bit bigger (pop 11 to pop 8) and i was able to work both gold all the time (if you would work both gold, your research also would be around 250+). you have quite some more inprovements then i have, it starts to show now that i´m having 30% less workers (you 10, me 7). this might turn into a considerable advantage of your game later.

that you have achived the same with archerpults as i have with elepults doesnt make my warring skills shine btw. but attacking gandhi first might prove an advantage maybe, because he simply is stronger on this map as peter

...

@ gkey:

biggest capital, best research rate, most improvements, also 10 cities... ...not much to say about your save but IMPRESSIVE... ...your playing so far seems close to ideal.

even the ai in your game was a lot more cooperative... ...just look at the placement of Viagra and New York: Viagra has some food in your game (in my game no food and not even access to water via chain irrigation without farming some fps in delhi) and New York... ...alone for founding Boston (New York position in your game) where lincoln did in my game, he must die...

GKey · Mar 23, 2013

Boston on the wheat :crazyeye:

. I think 1E of it (like in my game) was already under Peters culture, so he did not have choice. Is New York settled on the plain hill gold? Gandhi had 4 cities on the mainland in your game. In mine Iron/Rice spot was under Isabel's culture and but no city settled, forcing me to backfill this spot myself.

Difference in size if capital - you whipped units just recently, while I've whipped earlier and had time to regrow - not a big deal.

My jump in bpt came from all floodplain cottages (we have 9) in core cities evolved into towns + golden age. You will see the same once it happens in your game. But since then there was no any impressive grows of BPT. I did not expect such tech rate and screwed my tech path. Plus made some really noobish mistakes like not dropping slider to 0 while building universities and Oxford. I think to replay this from 250BC.

Also chopping MoM in Moscow with marble before starting GA seem to be a way to go.

Now how to convince AI's to go for Guilds rather then Education... Anyway they will not trade Guilds to us for quite long.

Unlike AW games ~60 :science:

from UoS did not make any difference in my game, hammers from AP was a big bonus though.

Snaaty · Mar 23, 2013

@ gkey:

feel free to replay. we arent competing here for anything, so replaying to "undo" some stupid choices and/or to see other pathes seems acutally great to me for learning purpose. actually, if we manage to find the ideal path to space experimenting here a little it would be great.

i´m for exemple still thinking off going apo-sankore-spiral + SoL before corps, just to see where it will bring us. if up to 3000 beakers pre corps (like in the AW game) would be possible it might be an alternative to the corps-beeline...

...

if if fails utterly (what is to be expected) i also will replay (or switch to your save, if you dont mind) trying the corps beeline

(i almost reached 1 ad btw, will try to get there this WE and post a save to compare)

Doshin · Mar 23, 2013

@snaaty

In AW, the AP/Sankore/SM are lifesavers. I was really surprised at how useful they proved. But here their effects are minimal because so much of the space race takes place after Scientific Method. One Scientist powered by Sushi contributes 6 :science:

. If you delay Scientific Method to prolong the effect of Monasteries, you are giving up 6 :science:

for 2

2

. That sounds reasonable enough, except that, on the next turn, 6 science becomes 12 science, which becomes 18, then 24, and so on (size 4 cities grow to size 24 in twenty turns... the gain is ridiculous). Then whipping two pops can create ~100 :hammers:

(boosted by Forges, the Kremlin, Organized Religion, etc.) at the cost of -1 unhappiness. There are still corps costs, for sure, but the benefits far outweigh these.

@snaaty/GKey

My game is now done.

I went back and replayed two "big" turn sets (by which I mean, I have no problem with "small" reloading following misclicks or forgetting to move a Worker onto a Galley before the Galley sails off... that sort of thing).

(1) I started to build the ToA in Beijing without Marble. It definitely would have completed in time, and I wanted the additional GP points in my capital. But it was taking soooo long to build, and it really slowed down my warring. Not worth it, IMO.

(2) I had no idea when a competitive space might finish. So after checking the HOF thread and seeing Kaitzilla's entry, I realized that I had waited way too long to kick off my last Golden Age. Facepalm. Reload.

BTW, I made several big mistakes in my game and didn't micro in a competitive way (just playing for fun

). But I learned a ton in this game. It turns out there is more to Civ than Cuirassier rushing Deity AIs. I'll post a save from AD 1000 when you guys catch up.

another hof spacerace start

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jolly yellow giant

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