Antifa rocks!

[Rashiminos]

How strange that the intrinsic right to self-identify for transpeople is a topic up for debate with Rashiminos/Rashers, yet he is so strident with his view that bigots should be able to sling their filth with abandon and no social or physical consequences? Surely a coincidence.

Explain to me why you think the right's of transpeople and people in general are superceded by that of the rights of the bigot.

I don't think calling people by their preferred gender should be made legally obligatory outside of government bureaucracies, even then it's a bigger ask than legally changing your name.

Your proposed consequences for bigoted views, especially with the propensity for physical consequences, tends to intensify radicalization. I'm not opposed to social consequences entirely (you want them to cut one way, which is left unstated).

As far as government is concerned, plain word names are just less efficient than numeric ones, like a SSN. It's less hair off their back to offer you the opportunity to give yourself an unique name, to enhance record quality.

And calling a transperson by their deadname maligns Transpeople as a whole than the criminal in question. Do you think any Transperson would agree with deadnaming? Even if the person was an absolute piece of ****?

Now, in this case, their preferred pronoun is unknown, but it's a general aesop overall.

I think the complaint you're looking for is "respectability politics." Anyways, a racial slur is not a proper name. A deadname is.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

So a boss of a trans employee should be able to intentionally deadname them, even if they ask to be known by a different name and pronouns? What if the person in question cannot change their names for financial reasons, should they be expected to endure that?

In what way is this position not functionally a defence of bigotry when it is being applied to a transperson who is genuinely trying to transition but cannot medically transition for a variety of reasons?

 

[bernie14]

Identity is usually a much bigger problem when you dont know who you are, as opposed to how others define you.... you may all now call me Betty....

 

[Cloud_Strife]

Identity is usually a much bigger problem when you dont know who you are, as opposed to how others define you.... you may all now call me Betty....

With all due respect it is a serious issue within the transcommunity, one that comes up time and time again if you visit the forums, groups, facebook pages that are transpostive spaces and it can have a major impact upon transpeople and their suicide rates, as well as other aspects of their mental health. It really isn't an issue that can just be easily dismissed unless you are willing to simply dismiss transpeoples concerns and problems wholesale.

 

[Rashiminos]

So a boss of a trans employee should be able to intentionally deadname them, even if they ask to be known by a different name and pronouns? What if the person in question cannot change their names for financial reasons, should they be expected to endure that?

In what way is this position not functionally a defence of bigotry when it is being applied to a transperson who is genuinely trying to transition but cannot medically transition for a variety of reasons?

If a boss wants to deadname employees, who says he needs to find willing employees? (Although if he's as much the bigot as the question implies, you're probably going to find much stronger indications of hostile work environment nearby).

In general, I would assume the employer deadnaming you is avoiding using your name in the official capacity a financial transaction would imply. The checks say one thing, the mouth says another.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

If a boss wants to deadname employees, who says he needs to find willing employees? (Although if he's as much the bigot as the question implies, you're probably going to find much stronger indications of hostile work environment nearby).

In general, I would assume the employer deadnaming you is avoiding using your name in the official capacity a financial transaction would imply. The checks say one thing, the mouth says another.

Deadnaming can be (and is) a form of discrimination, as well as bullying. Workplace discrimination should be tackled, do you not agree?

If a person still has their deadname as their legal name why is it so difficult to respect their wishes and refer to them as what they identify as?

 

[Rashiminos]

Deadnaming can be (and is) a form of discrimination, as well as bullying. Workplace discrimination should be tackled, do you not agree?

As is performance, or workplace culture. Interventions (legal, economic) may, or may not fix "the problem."

 

[Cloud_Strife]

As is performance, or workplace culture. Interventions (legal, economic) may, or may not fix "the problem."

And are you for extending the same rights and laws that protect people on the basis of their race and other characteristics that are considered "protected classes" in states and cases where they aren't already?

And please Rashy, it is a problem even if it is one that you haven't personally experienced or felt.

 

[Rashiminos]

The trans case is more comparable to the person wanting to come to work in blackface than the black person who wants to come in to work at the place of his choosing. The Spronsen case is wanting to the right to a favorable obituary after shooting up your neighbors. If deadnaming isn't a thing in all likelihood undue respect will be given the person in question, and undue disrespect to the class intended to be (socially) protected(/accepted). If he isn't the exception, he's closer to the rule.

If a person still has their deadname as their legal name why is it so difficult to respect their wishes and refer to them as what they identify as?

Wishful thinking in the gender department tends to be correlated with the (self-)deception department for the people expressing this difficulty.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

Why are you comparing being trans and wanting to be recognised and have your gender affirmed with wearing blackface?

Do you honestly believe they are comparable in both society and law? If I come in to the office each day dressed as my actual gender, explicitly ask to be called and refered too by a specific name and pronoun in what way is that different from asking a white employer to not make racially insensitive statements?

Both are being jackass.

Being trans and black are both characteristics that one cannot choose and surely if you are so uncomfortable with bigots having their rights and dignity infringed upon you'd also at least want the trans community to keep theirs as well right?

 

[Rashiminos]

With all due respect it is a serious issue within the transcommunity, one that comes up time and time again if you visit the forums, groups, facebook pages that are transpostive spaces and it can have a major impact upon transpeople and their suicide rates, as well as other aspects of their mental health. It really isn't an issue that can just be easily dismissed unless you are willing to simply dismiss transpeoples concerns and problems wholesale.

Wholesale? No. Selectively, yes. The dismissmal tends to reach equilibriums. You could call it a spectrum.

Why are you comparing being trans and wanting to be recognised and have your gender affirmed with wearing blackface?

Do you honestly believe they are comparable in both society and law?

In law? No. In society? Definitely.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

Explain to me then how identifying as one gender and transitioning is in anyway comparable to blackface because the latter is about being able to alter your appearance in a manner considered offensive and is different from self identification.

I can't believe I have to actually spell this out to you

 

[Rashiminos]

Being trans and black are both characteristics that one cannot choose and surely if you are so uncomfortable with bigots having their rights and dignity infringed upon you'd also at least want the trans community to keep theirs as well right?

The trans community's connection to natural necessity is much more tenuous that the dark-skinned and therefore racialized community's connection. If you need to spell it out, explain how a lack of choice is remedied by a transition. As far as some authoritative sources are concerned, the gender you chose not to be is the one you had claim to, by default.

Self-identification does not imply lack of offensiveness, by the way.

Both are being...

One of the points of law is to contain the scope of the ways people can be jackasses to each other. Historically, a certain degree of consensus is needed to make these laws stable. Your support of antifa runs counter to that notion (physical punishments over merely distasteful speech).

 

[Cloud_Strife]

You mistake gender for sex. Gender can change and is not set in stone however the biological sex someone is born as cannot be.

 

[Rashiminos]

Gender can change, but you cannot choose it, is that a correct summary of what you just stated?

 

[Cloud_Strife]

I'm saying that gender is not the biological component of one's identity but is it's social counterpart and subject to change, whatever form that may take and I only mention that because not every transpersons transition will fit the neat boxes, assumptions or labels that cis people assign to them.

If a person assigned male at birth believes with all sincerity that they are female inside why not take them on their word? Being trans isn't exactly fun you know and transitioning is done out of necessity as well as to alleviate dysphoria.

 

[Rashiminos]

If gender has more to do with personality and social status than biological sex, why use language like male, female, men, women, etc to intentionally muddy the issues?

If a person assigned male at birth believes with all sincerity that they are female inside why not take them on their word?

Sincere belief has a poor track record of being taken as fact (in at least two senses, even). It's one thing for a person to prove to her own satisfaction that she is female. It's another to prove it to someone else.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

Are you suggesting we as society should refer to others strictly In gender neutral terms as a default? If so then I agree but we both know it won't happen overnight and that gendered language is borne of convenience as well as due to social, cultural and religious norms and mores.

 

[Rashiminos]

Are you suggesting we as society should refer to others strictly In gender neutral terms as a default? If so then I agree but we both know it won't happen overnight and that gendered language is borne of convenience as well as due to social, cultural and religious norms and mores.

I think each society should set its own norms. Theoretically there could be a society that prefers gender neutral terms. This runs into the problem of deciding how many societies there should be.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

And if, as it has and currently is, comming at the expense of transpeople do you not think that maybe something should be done at least in terms of the law to ensure transpeople are given protection against the forms of discrimination they suffer?

Again I'm struggling to see how this isn't a defence for the status quo (trying to be charitable) and at worst enabling transphobic by apathy.