Antifa rocks!

[Cloud_Strife]

I can only go by your words and positions Manfred.

 

[brennan]

Nobody has defended fascism.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

No, just belittled it.

Read the thread.

 

[Manfred Belheim]

I can only go by your words and positions Manfred.

The words I actually say or the ones you put in my mouth?

But what is it you're doubting?

Serious question. Are you actually saying that because I make a jokey comment wherein I am being deliberately contrary based around a pedantic interpretation of the phrase "grand scheme of things" that you think it's reasonable to interpret this as a statement specifically belittling fascism? When I said the entire history of this planet? Is that really where we're at now?

In all seriousness I genuinely have no idea how you could honestly think that comment was actually an attempt to belittle fascism. I can't even wrap my head around that. And even if it's largely a result of other posts, I still can't understand how that could be the straw that broke the camel's back, given that it was just a complete aside that had nothing to do with anything other than my own desire to amuse myself briefly. I really am bemused by that, but okay.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Nobody has defended fascism.

Of course not. Just free speech, specifically of fascists. And access to weapons, specifically of fascists. And the right to expect to only meet violence if one has very clearly gotten one's own shots off first, specifically of fascists. Etc, etc, etc.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

The words I actually say or the ones you put in my mouth?

But what is it you're doubting?

The words you actually say.

 

[brennan]

Of course not. Just free speech, specifically of fascists. And access to weapons, specifically of fascists. And the right to expect to only meet violence if one has very clearly gotten one's own shots off first, specifically of fascists. Etc, etc, etc.

In a thread in which people are advocating denial of rights specifically to alleged fascists, people are defending the rights, specifically, of alleged fascists? Oh noes. They should be specifically defending the rights of furniture makers instead, obviously.

 

[Manfred Belheim]

The words you actually say.

Which words that I say are you doubting?

 

[Timsup2nothin]

In a thread in which people are advocating denial of rights specifically to alleged fascists, people are defending the rights, specifically, of alleged fascists? Oh noes. They should be specifically defending the rights of furniture makers instead, obviously.

So, where do you stand on the denial of Cloud's basic right to personal security, which in the US is not just being "advocated," but is actually happening? I notice you aren't showing a whole lot of interest in defending that, despite that also being talked about in the thread.

 

[Manfred Belheim]

Which words that I say are you doubting?

Well, kind of disappointing that we get to the point where we're actually being civil and at least attempting some sort of proper discourse, then you just pull that out of thin air and refuse to even explain what you're talking about, but "you do you" as they say.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

Nothing you have said gives me any indication that I wouldn't continue to be victimised and abused in a society governed by your mores, In some ways it might be worse.

That is the honest truth and you cannot keep tap dancing away from that fundamental problem.

You offer me no hope in escaping the problems I face and you ask me to tolerate things that I have explained to you I cannot, for reasons beyond mere disagreement but extend to actual compromising of my safety.

You cannot advocate for this and not expect push back. You cannot keep doing this and expect me not to think certain disquieting thoughts and i would be lying to pretend otherwise.

 

[Berzerker]

It wasn't an act of defence on his part, he even said as much when he spoke to his mother in prison about it; he hated Heather Heyer and thought her death was an acceptable thing because of who she was. You cannot get away from that, try as you might.

And in regards to religion, what makes you think the issue is even comparable in terms of solutions?

He didn't know her and he wouldn't have gotten into a car and plowed into people if Antifa hadn't showed up for war. There are religions that preach death to certain people including gays, should they be silenced? What is your solution?

I'm pretty sure you are forgetting a pretty big example of the exact opposite of this happening.

Just putting that out there.

Thats an example of trying to violently suppress speech, not allow it.

I mean come on dude. This isn't true and you know it. The holocaust wasn't whipped up apropos of nothing; there was over a decade of virulent hate speech that led up to the violence. And this is of course overlooking more direct harmful speech like yelling Fire! in a crowded theater or instructing your crowd to 'rough up' protestors and promising to cover legal bills at campaign rallies and other direct incitements to violence.

Wasn't Nazism preceded by mob violence as protesters attacked each other?

ROUGH THEM UP, I'LL PAY YOUR LEGAL BILLS

And then people got beat up

I thought he said that about people throwing stuff at him

For the record I have been PAID to attend Democrat rallies. Purpose, to take out right wing disruptors who ACHE to get into a conflict with official security that the right wing rags can turn into "candidate's thugs stifle free speech." By having an "ordinary attendee" squash them the design is foiled. Do they wear jackboots? None that I encountered. No doubt that's why you didn't notice them.

Hey Hobbs, are you okay with paying people to ROUGH THEM UP, I'LL PAY YOUR LEGAL BILLS when its the Democrats doing it?

 

[brennan]

So, where do you stand on the denial of Cloud's basic right to personal security, which in the US is not just being "advocated," but is actually happening? I notice you aren't showing a whole lot of interest in defending that, despite that also being talked about in the thread.

"Gosh i'll pretend changing the subject is a gotcha"

I haven't shown interest in it because it hasn't happened. Nobody i've seen has denied Cloud the right to defend himself in person or via his posting, nor has anyone claimed that anybody has the right to physically threaten or assault him.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

No, you just defend people who do, regardless of intent on your part, yet you cannot grasp why such a thing might be immoral to me or a warning sign of sorts.

I'm trying to be cordial here but if I read your posts and they lead me to a conclusion what should I do? Ignore it, for decorums sake? In what way is that different from lying by omission?

I can grant you the benefit of the doubt but you must understand why I might begrudgingly have to do so, I haven't exactly hidden my views on minorities, I've been very open about how I believe they are subjected to social pressures and victimisation by prejudiced groups.

I don't think you are in line with them I just think you don't realize that your arguments are a lot closer to what they want. They want to be able to speak without any infringement. It's how they grow.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Well, kind of disappointing that we get to the point where we're actually being civil and at least attempting some sort of proper discourse, then you just pull that out of thin air and refuse to even explain what you're talking about, but "you do you" as they say.

LOL...when we are "civilly" discussing how directly the urging of violence has to be for you to agree it is direct I think it is a bit too late to bemoan the pulling of the plug.

 

[brennan]

No, you just...

This is an admission that the previous claim is false. Noted.

...so Tim was just making **** up? Okay. And we're the people who aren't engaging faithfully...

Now, let me get this straight: you think defending peoples' rights is immoral? Because they're bad people? Or is it that because it is bad people whose rights need defending here that you extrapolate that I only think bad people should have these rights?

 

[Cloud_Strife]

I think defending fascists rights enables them to spread and grow, same with prejudice.

That puts the burden on minorities. You cannot hold these to be equal or even moral and expect me to nod happily along.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

So Tim was just making **** up? Okay. And we're the people who aren't engaging faithfully...

Now, let me get this straight: you think defending peoples' rights is immoral? Because they're bad people? Or is it that because it is bad people whose rights need defending here that you extrapolate that I only think bad people should have these rights?

Once again, a wildly out of left field comment to try to derail the thread.

What exactly are you suggesting I was "just making up"?

 

[Cloud_Strife]

I don't know Brennan, I've explained my position that any rights that fascists and prejudiced people have conflict with the rights and dignity of minorities.

I don't want to have to ask which one you are willing to tolerate because you can only choose one side. They are diametrically opposed and if you disagree you are in effect telling me my lived experiences are not real and that I should rely on society being kinder when again my experiences are vastly different from your own.

I do not trust society to not devalue or degrade me when it becomes convenient, perhaps you do not need to worry about that, but I do.

 

[brennan]

I think defending fascists rights enables them to spread and grow, same with prejudice.

That puts the burden on minorities. You cannot hold these to be equal or even moral and expect me to nod happily along.

I've cited evidence that prejudice is shrinking in the US and has been for decades. You ignored that evidence. I'll cite it again:

The proportion of people who agree with a bell-weather progressive statement like "Do you believe gay or lesbian relationships between consenting adults should be legal" has been steadily increasing for the last 30 years and is now about 75%.

I've explained my position that any rights that fascists and prejudiced people have conflict with the rights and dignity of minorities.

Please cite a specific legal right that a fascist in the US has right now that conflicts with one of your rights.

I don't want to have to ask which one you are willing to tolerate because you can only choose one side.

I've already called bullfeathers on this false dichotomy.

if you disagree you are in effect telling me my lived experiences are not real

"in effect" meaning not really, but you will continue to interpret anything anyone says in the most negative way possible.