Antifa rocks!

[Cloud_Strife]

I cannot continue to entertain this conversation Brennan if you aren't even willing to accept the basics of my argument.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

"in effect" meaning not really, but you will continue to interpret anything anyone says in the most negative way possible.

More likely just what you say, because you have a track record that justifies doing so.

Well, you and Manfred. Similar record, similar results.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

Should I just ignore my own lived experiences in favour of someone who doesn't even belong to the same group I am in, let alone live on the same continent? What if i started making claims about Britain? Or what It's like to be cis? To me it is stretching credibility and it's both bewildering and tiring.

 

[brennan]

I cannot continue to entertain this conversation Brennan if you aren't even willing to accept the basics of my argument.

So it has been admitted that nobody has defended fascism and you cannot back up your claims about having your rights infringed by the rights of fascists with a clear example? Nor are you prepared to acknowledge that evidence exists that progressive ideas are spreading.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

So it has been admitted that nobody has defended fascism and you cannot back up your claims about having your rights infringed by the rights of fascists with a clear example? Nor are you prepared to acknowledge that evidence exists that progressive ideas are spreading.

Well, no. But that was your conclusion when you entered the conversation so we can only hope you leave with it.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

I have tried to explain that I sincerely believe that tolerating fascist and by extension their rights, comes at a cost to minorities.

Your response is the equivalent of society asking me to wait a little longer for tolerance and I've been let down before too many times. It is a stalling tactic to placate me and as such I find it patronising even if that isn't the intent behind it.

It isn't persuasive to someone already having to deal with the price of tolerating fascists and prejudice, I cannot make myself any clearer.

 

[brennan]

Even that is a misrepresentation. My response is that your 'sincere belief' is wrong and that your tactics only make things worse.

 

[Manfred Belheim]

Nothing you have said gives me any indication that I wouldn't continue to be victimised and abused in a society governed by your mores, In some ways it might be worse.

I'm not sure what you think my mores are other than "don't bash people over the head with bike locks" and "don't arbitrarily remove rights from people". And I'm certainly confused what it is that you think I support that would make things worse than the current society that you already see as so terrible to begin with.

That is the honest truth and you cannot keep tap dancing away from that fundamental problem.

I'm not tapdancing away from anything, anymore than you're tapdancing away from what I'm saying. We're disagreeing.

You offer me no hope in escaping the problems I face and you ask me to tolerate things that I have explained to you I cannot, for reasons beyond mere disagreement but extend to actual compromising of my safety.

I live in a different country and don't even know you. Offering you hope was never on the table.

You cannot advocate for this and not expect push back. You cannot keep doing this and expect me not to think certain disquieting thoughts and i would be lying to pretend otherwise.

You're the one who is advocating for things and I'm pushing back. You want to enact all sorts of sweeping, authoritarian policies against "the enemy", up to and including violence, and restricting their rights and speech. All the while warning of lessons from history about authoritarian violent regimes that restricted rights and speech. And if me or anyone else complains that that's bad... well then we're "collaborators" who need to be treated the same as the rest. We're either with you or we're the enemy. And you just don't see the irony...

 

[Bugfatty300]

Whereas racist rallies and nazi propaganda has a neutral effect on our society.

This is actually correct.

Spoiler WARNING GRAPHIC IMAGE :

 

[cardgame]

The overton window is so far to the right that suggesting people shouldn't be forced to sleep on the streets or arguing it's not ok for employers to steal tipped wages is decried as Soviet-style communism. Everything is extreme and therefore nothing is extreme. I have been saying though that this renewed attack on all things socialistic or even anti-capitalist is a godsend as the extreme positions being taken up by the far right de-legitimizes all of their positions. It's a bit like how the LDS Church campaigned against gay marriage in California on grounds of pedophilia wound up helping (in my estimation) make gay marriage the law of the land a few short years later. I think overreach is a real phenomenon.

Equality between the sexes is communist too

I'm not sure what you think my mores are other than "don't bash people over the head with bike locks" and "don't arbitrarily remove rights from people". And I'm certainly confused what it is that you think I support that would make things worse than the current society that you already see as so terrible to begin with.



I'm not tapdancing away from anything, anymore than you're tapdancing away from what I'm saying. We're disagreeing.



I live in a different country and don't even know you. Offering you hope was never on the table.



You're the one who is advocating for things and I'm pushing back. You want to enact all sorts of sweeping, authoritarian policies against "the enemy", up to and including violence, and restricting their rights and speech. All the while warning of lessons from history about authoritarian violent regimes that restricted rights and speech. And if me or anyone else complains that that's bad... well then we're "collaborators" who need to be treated the same as the rest. We're either with you or we're the enemy. And you just don't see the irony...

Punishing people for bigoted behavior is about a mile away from punishing them for having the audacity to exist while non-white. Paradox of tolerance explains perfectly well why, you just don't see it.

 

[brennan]

Spoiler WARNING GRAPHIC IMAGE :

When I was a kid, people were setting bombs off in towns near me. They could do this because we weren't a police state. I'm glad that we still are not a police state and there weren't enough morons willing to throw their rights away for a bit more security.

 

[Estebonrober]

When I was a kid, people were setting bombs off in towns near me. They could do this because we weren't a police state. I'm glad that we still are not a police state and there weren't enough morons willing to throw their rights away for a bit more security.

A police state would bring on more of this in the US, not less.

 

[aelf]

And here I started to think @Cloud_Strife was being a bit of a jerk but now I see why

This guy always argues in bad faith. My proudest achievement here recently is having him declare that I'm not worth engaging with. Finally, I don't have to waste any time reading his responses again.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

I wish I hadn't posted that, I don't want drama. I was highly frustrated at the time but it wasn't worth it.

 

[Commodore]

Fascists are kind of the ultimate evil if you are one of the groups they want to eliminate.

Nobody out there is trying to eliminate you. Stop being paranoid.

One side's endgame is the wholesale elimination of certain groups of people, the other side wants to stop that, even if it means using violence.

Yep, you keep telling yourself that those you are victimizing are devil's while you are the flawless saint fighting a noble crusade.

 

[Manfred Belheim]

Punishing people for bigoted behavior is about a mile away from punishing them for having the audacity to exist while non-white. Paradox of tolerance explains perfectly well why, you just don't see it.

The fact you quoted what I said before this seems to imply you think this is in some way a reply to me? I wasn't even talking about punishment however, so I don't see how.

 

[Manfred Belheim]

This guy always argues in bad faith. My proudest achievement here recently is having him declare that I'm not worth engaging with. Finally, I don't have to waste any time reading his responses again.

Ooh I'll engage with this one then. I have never once argued in bad faith, that just unfortunately seems to be the go-to judgement when arguing with people you disagree with for some reason. Doesn't mean I don't get exasperated and insult people, or don't always take things seriously, but I don't lie about my opinions. What would be the point on an internet forum?

 

[Commodore]

Um, echo chambers describes most of our contemporary media, social or otherwise.

For social media I blame that on features that allow users to only surround themselves with information and other users that agree with them and block out any opposing opinions or viewpoints.

 

[Broken_Erika]

I like my echo-chamber bubble. It's safe in here. Plus echos are fun.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

Nobody out there is trying to eliminate you. Stop being paranoid.

As if you would even know in the first place. You haven't lived my life nor been through my experiences, yet you speak as If you do.