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Anyone has a viable strategy for the Scions?

Discussion in 'Fall Further' started by citizenalex, Jun 26, 2009.

  1. xienwolf

    xienwolf Deity

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    No penalty at all until after you have 5XP, remember that we are using integers, so fractions don't exist. 4/5 = 0 in computer language here. 5/5 through 9/5 = 1, etc. Thus without the +1 you are dividing by 0 for the first 5 XP points and that causes computers to blow up and eat Cheetos.

    And as Vehem said, you will gain more XP as a base once this is active than you do now, so technically you still get quicker XP for the first 5, and eventually it works down to about what it gives you now (not sure what the current rate is so can't say WHEN it matches current precisely).



    Danger range is a funky thing to deal with because you are just telling the tile "Look out!" and not "That guy 2 squares left and 1 square down is a PITA, go hit him" So if you make the range too large, units are always freaked out so it does you no good (it's like announcing every deer you ever see while riding passenger with someone by shout "Oh my God! A deer!" when you finally see one sitting in the middle of the road and attempt to warn him to swerve, he thinks you are just pointing out yet another one on the side of the road so far out he can't even tell what it is)
     
  2. WarKirby

    WarKirby Arty person

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    remember? I don't recall that being mentioned. And it's rather illogical. Why would you use integers for something like this? Especially given that the entire XP system was specifically made decimal in FF. Using an integer for a multiplier seems like a step backwards in terms of flexiblity. I can't see any logical reason for not using a float here.


    I don't see how that is. Up to 5xp, your gained xp is divided by 1, so no change. then it's all downhill from there. I can't see any point at which this system gives xp faster than you get now.
     
  3. xienwolf

    xienwolf Deity

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    Right now your XP is divided by a global define, I think 5. So you'd get XP faster this way until you had 20 XP total.


    And float values actually can cause some OOS issues when the players have different OS's (like Vista and XP) because they round differently at a decimal place WAY smaller than will ever matter for anything except the OOS check. So the trick that Firaxis uses (and I decided to use with the XP system as well) is to use an integer that is 100 times larger than what is actually displayed to the user. So it is a "float" in that there are 2 decimal places, but it is actually just an integer that places minimal emphasis on the last 2 digits so that people won't completely notice/care about rounding issues.

    Someday I need to sit down and change all of the other float values we use to this same type of a system really. But the times where most of those will matter are VERY few and far between, so it isn't a priority (most are concepts we made up, and haven't added to the OOS tracker)
     
  4. MagisterCultuum

    MagisterCultuum Great Sage

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    I was under the impression that FF still used integers for xp, they just use integers 100 times as large and divide before graphically displaying them.

    Edit: Xienwolf beat me to it
     
  5. Vehem

    Vehem Modmod Monkey

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    Try implementing it :D You'll find out quickly enough...

    (not impossible, but the current method has far less potential for trouble further down the line)
     
  6. scutarii

    scutarii King

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    try to settle next to one or more barbarian cities. Build warriors, conquer those barb cities. So you can save several expensive reborns.
     
  7. Anathema

    Anathema Chieftain

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    By the way, WarKirby, in your math you left out the +10% strength headless gives an Honored Band. Which means +40% strength for the HB right off the production line compared to any other unit - besides making the HB far better than an archer, this also brings the HB more in line with any other civ's axemen. It takes level 4 (assuming bronze weapons+combat promotions) for an axeman to match an equivalent HB's offensive strength, if you're not attacking an archer (level 5 if you are). To clarify, this means at level 1-3 Honored Bands are actually better both offensively and defensively than axemen, at level 4 they become equal offensively, and at level 5+ the axeman pulls ahead of the HB offensively but is always weaker defensively - and the HB stays ahead for an extra level if attacking an archer. Quick math: HB is (offensive) base strength 4+100% (30% heavy, 10% headless, 60% combat III) = 8, vs. the axeman's base strength 5+60% (combat III) = 8. Not to mention that the same HB will have 6*100% = 12 defensive strength, and if your offensive units never have to defend I suggest you pillage more. My point is that you can't call the HB a bad offensive unit, all in all it at least matches axemen, personally I prefer the HB; the lower levels are the most important anyway, if that level 2 or 3 unit you just built doesn't win that first fight, he'll never hit level 4 anyway. So I'll pay an extra gold per turn for a unit that's much more likely to win low level offensive battles and thus survive to reach higher levels (not to mention being far better at defense at any level).

    The only serious drawback is the HB's speed, if Scions could build axemen I might be tempted to for mobility if nothing else - but you can't, and if you're comparing HB vs. any equivalent Scion unit, there's no competition, HB is Scion's best city attacker. It may take you an extra couple turns to get there, but what will your victim do, seriously? Build one extra warrior? The slow speed of your offensive stacks is annoying, but with the incredible defensive strength of HBs you don't need to worry about a counterattack enroute, in fact you welcome it - and once you get to the city, mathematically speaking, you're generally better off with your slow moving snail-of-doom than a bunch of horsemen or whatever. Unless you're playing against a human and counting on them to make a mistake, to leave a city weakly defended so you can hit it before they move reinforcements into place? There's something to be said for speed over strength in that case, but I'd rather not depend on an enemy's mistake, and an HB stack is more capable than any other (equivalent tier) Scion unit for taking out their best defenders once you get there.

    Edit: I should note that I rarely, if ever, use the HB's suicide ability. It works counter to the HB's other strengths; you've got an expensive axeman that's extremely difficult to kill defensively, with a slight edge offensively at lower levels; it's perfectly suited to winning a few fights, getting a few promotions, winning a few more fights, and snowballing up to a level 10+ cannibalizing unkillable devourer of stacks of doom. Suiciding that HB defeats the whole purpose. That said if you have a good number of well-promoted HBs, and they just don't have the strength to take out that city defender, you might suicide a few fresh HBs to weaken it - and even then I'm tempted not to hit the suicide button just in case the HB survives the fight, and goes on to become the afore-mentioned level 10+ uber unit. But anyway, for the role of expendable suiciding canon fodder, it's definitely arguable whether 2x centeni may well be better suited than an HB. Even so the well-promoted core of your stack of doom should definitely be HBs.
     
  8. odalrick

    odalrick Emperor

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    Amazing that +10% can make that big a difference. Nevertheless, level 4 isn't that high and Aggressive knocks off a level.

    I don't promote units above cannon fodder before they have Combat III and a utility promotion anyway.

    The higher levels are the most important anyway. Who cares if a level 3 recruit dies? There are three more units ready to take his place anyway. If you lose a high level unit it will take hundreds of turns to replace him.

    The drawbacks are speed and maintenance, both of which make them useless for a large empire.

    Soldiers of Kilmorph can substitute for axemen to some degree. Huge drawbacks of course, but like Honored Bands, they are a specialist unit. Unlike Honored Bands, their speciality is a useful one.

    I expect them to shift their entire army to intercept my army, and start building more units in all their cities. Against a biggish empire that could easily mean a tripling of the defence force.

    More importantly, it's the second and third cities that really matter. I'm walking through enemy culture lands, the entire enemy empire is constantly building replacements that arrive pretty much the instant they are built. Meanwhile my replacements take twice as long to arrive, compared to non-crippled equivalents.

    I don't play against humans, but if I did speed would be even more important.

    Not to capitalize on mistakes, but in order not to leave time for genius. (What is the opposite of mistake anyway? Not just absence of error, but still not a master-stroke .)

    A human could, for instance, counter attack. No, not futilely send waves of experience against your wall of 'bands. I mean send a strike force into your territory to wreak havoc and raze your cities.

    Or call upon an ally to do the same.

    Or some completely unanticipated master-stroke.

    Or, and this is something a computer opponent could never do: Lose the war and still be a threat.

    And remember, all things being equal: the defender will have the larger army.


    It seems that for some playstyles and some leaders the crippling drawbacks of Honored Bands become slightly less crippling, to the point where actually using Honored Bands is no longer like shooting yourself in the foot, but more like smoking cigarettes: Still bad for you, but at least you look cool doing it.
     
  9. Rev. Ratspaw

    Rev. Ratspaw Chieftain

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    Interesting. Although the fact that you´re still debating their relative strenghts and weaknesses proves that while they both shine and wane in certains circumstances neither makes the other obsolete.
     
  10. citizenalex

    citizenalex Chieftain

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    I've had a game going with the Scions using the advice previously posted here. I rushed sorcery and Animal Handling and spammed haunted lands everywhere. Now i'm up to my gills in creepers. I've tried a few things like stacking them next to my cities and making walls along my borders, but am I missing something here? Are they just free cheap fodder or is there some sick combo i'm unaware of 400 turns later?
     
  11. FireBlaze

    FireBlaze King

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    Could you use them to pillage every workable tile around a city in one turn, sending it into a spiral downward, and leaving the cities economy in shatters. If you did this to all core cities, you could easily half their science/gold income, while also making them hard pressed to replace troops that you kill.
     
  12. WarKirby

    WarKirby Arty person

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    No, you couldn't.

    they can't pillage, per se. But they have the Arawn's dust spell which pillages a farm/plantation/pasture, etc,. Any food improvement only. But using it declares war, so you'd only get to do it once and then any future creepers would get killed by enemy troops before they can do it.

    Creepers are not very useful. Their main purpose, I think, is to slowly spread the haunted lands. When they either successfully win a battle (unlikely) or reach their final lifecycle stage (takes about 100 turns) they can kill themselves to create a new tile of haunted lands,

    They do have that burreowing thorns spell, too. Which can do significant damage to a single enemy. Using that kills them too, though. So they're only marginally useful for defensive puposes,

    All in all, I don't like creepers much. I mainly just fortify them on hilltops to eat the occasional stupid orc, but they're otherwise not much use.
     
  13. Tarquelne

    Tarquelne Follower of Tytalus

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    Arawn's Dust doesn't cause war. (As of the next version Taking Root won't either.) In the released version Arawn's Dust doesn't work on Camps, but it will in the next.

    "Burrowing Thorns" (from Blooming Creepers) is a range 1 AoE spell, so it can hit more than 1 unit. (And the RR is -10, too.)

    So Young Creepers as free scouts or a little defense (2 poison plus Defensive Strikes) are nice, but Mature they can be used to severely damage another civ's health/resource production (synergy with Pelemoc there), Blooming they do % damage on enemy units, and Rooted they're not far off from a Longbowman. (Def 5 + 2 Poison, 25/15 Defensive strikes.)

    And and they never cost hammers to make or gold to maintain, and unrooted Creeper lucky enough to survive a combat - 15% withdraw helps a lot - can spread HL.

    So they *are* cheap fodder, but with a lot more to offer than what the Young Creepers start with.
     
  14. Vehem

    Vehem Modmod Monkey

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    If it's an offensive action (such as pillaging) in another player's land then it should. Scorching a plains tile outside of all city radii causes war, so destroying their improvements definitely should.
     
  15. WarKirby

    WarKirby Arty person

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    Then why is Taking Root being changed to not cause war? Spreading Haunted Lands is a definitely offensive action, as it gives a health penalty to other civs and no bonus. it also removes forest, which can essentially be double the health penalty.
     
  16. Tarquelne

    Tarquelne Follower of Tytalus

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    I'm not sure - Improvements are replaceable by Workers, the #s of Creepers are supposed to be limited (esp. considering that only 1 age group can use the spell), and the spell's never caused war but there are still questions/criticisms with regard to Creeper usefulness. Maybe no one knows what to do with them, but I don't think there's ever been feedback that they're too powerful. (Too numerous, yes, but not too useful.)

    It's supposed to be a sneaky form of attack so I wouldn't want to see war declared. Past limits involved % chance to fail and (perhaps) more limited # of Creepers. Other limits could be: Make the spell require older Creepers, give a diplomatic penalty for the presence of a Creeper, and % chance to declare war.

    Hard to get. You need a Creeper that survives combat, then survives to get to the spot you want to HL-ize, and need to use it within X turns.
     
  17. xienwolf

    xienwolf Deity

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  18. Valkrionn

    Valkrionn The Hamster King

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    Yeah... I see no issue with Rooting not causing war (Has a benefit, as well as a penalty, after all, and is relatively difficult to pull off), but pillaging a food source should have at least a chance to cause war. I'd say leave it relatively low though.
     
  19. WarKirby

    WarKirby Arty person

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    Are you sure about that? I thought Haunted Lands only gave extra commerce for the Scions. Does it apply for everyone ?
     
  20. Valkrionn

    Valkrionn The Hamster King

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    Well, I may be wrong... Haven't checked since the civ-specific yields were added. If the yields were moved to just Scions, then yes, I can see it causing war.
     

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