Are We All Wrong on Iraq?

[boarder]

I don't claim to 'know' what's right - but I have gotten a pretty good sense of things over there, from working with those that've recently returned from Iraq. Main thing that comes to mind with regard to how you guys talk about it - is that you guys are seriously over estimating the place. You just don't understand what a $#%^hole that place is , for lack of a better term, thus you tend to (in an analogy) place this POS on a pedestal, and closely marvel at it.

It's not that complicated. The place is a Hell-hole. Seriously. You just don't get it. What kind of "great news" do you really expect to come out of there...? It's the most depressing, run-down, backwards place - more than you can imagine - if you've spent your whole life flourishing in a Western democracy. You're giving the overall situation more credit than it deserves.

All in all, the US troops are making the best they can of a miserable situation. And btw, I'm not bashing Iraq... just not sugar-coating it, like so many seem to do. I see no point in doing that. The reality of the matter is, that the country is so poor, and backwards, that you can't just take away the evil regime, and say "here's your freedom - welcome to the 21st century!" I never expected anything otherwise. I thought we were going to go in there and rampage & puppet the place. This whole idea of rebuilding the place into a Mesopotamian paradise in a few years is purely... impossible.

So if that's what you guys are waiting for - don't hold your breath.

That being said often a country has to go through a period of civil war to shall we say "find themselves" after a loss of a dictator like saddam.
It will take years but eventually they will get there, or destroy it.
Probably after/if us uk pull out.

 

[tomsnowman123]

You seem to be forgetful of the chronology of events. We were attacked first, remember...? It was that, that resulted in the change of doctrine - to preemptive attack on threatening enemies, before they strike us. Or, if you prefer - a license to go take out Saddam. Notice, that was the only thing that actually resulted from the new doctrine. And now, even though all his political capital is used up over it, I'm sure it was worth it to Bush, because afterall, it was personal.

Yep, I see it. Terrorists attack us first, so we decide to go along and attack a country who hadn't attacked us first. Hell, let's invade Iran and North Korea now. And maybe China, just in case. You never know. Hell, lets just nuke everyone except us, then we can never be attacked.

We should not stoop to the level of being a *wrong* aggressor.

 

[PrinceOfLeigh]

And don't get mad at me. I didn't make things this way. They've been like this for thousands of years. I'm just a realist.
{snip}
That's the reality of the world we live in. Look around. Might as well learn to digest it. Pacifism gets you nowhere, except over a barrel. Pacifists are in denial - about human nature, as well as the nature of life on this Earth in general.

Europeans killed each other too. For thousands of years, the climax being the two most brutal wars in History. Take a look 50 years later. Who would have thought at the beginning of the 20th Century that Europe would be as peaceful as it is now?

Claiming that this is human nature is not "realism" it's an ostentatious refusal to look for another way.

 

[Neomega]

Timmy: Don't jump into that steaming pile of horse *poo* Billy

Billy: Hold my hand, well jump in together.

Timmy: No Billy! I don't wanna!

*Billy grabs timmys hand and jumps in*

Timmy: Billy, I'm telling, that was wrong! Now we are covered in horse *poo*!

Billy: No, stay, I'll figure out a way to get out.

Timmy: I want out Billy

Billy: No, lets just stay in this pile of horse *poo* until it turns to corn.


and 15 years later, Billy was right, corn did grow from the horse *poo*. Unfortunately, Both Billy and timmy died of coprophagia...


...and Hans and Pierre thought the corn tasted great.

 

[Neomega]

I'm sure many of us are familiar with the phrase "armchair general", but is it possible that we're all being armchair generals, with no real first-hand knowledge of the Iraq situation?

I don't know how accurate this can be, but are our opinions on the military or political situation in Iraq all that intelligent? There are others out there, within the military and civilian worlds, who have studied for years on the Middle East, desert combat tactics, etc., so how really right can our opinions be?

Yes, and many plans for Iraq, that were in the makings for 10 years, were scrapped by politicians and a certain defense secretary who wanted to try out some new strategies and tactics.

 

[Sidhe]

Europeans killed each other too. For thousands of years, the climax being the two most brutal wars in History. Take a look 50 years later. Who would have thought at the beginning of the 20th Century that Europe would be as peaceful as it is now?

Claiming that this is human nature is not "realism" it's an ostentatious refusal to look for another way.

Hard lessons learned well, if only all the countries of the world would learn it. War is good because it erm? Well war for greed is good, oh no we lost money, well war for politics is good, we saved lives by killing hundreds of thousands, erm? Well left to there own devices they'd probably kill themselves eventually, oh they wouldn't, erm shut up war is just great, my media tells me it works so I trust in it.

 

[Lotus49]

Europeans killed each other too. For thousands of years, the climax being the two most brutal wars in History. Take a look 50 years later. Who would have thought at the beginning of the 20th Century that Europe would be as peaceful as it is now?

Claiming that this is human nature is not "realism" it's an ostentatious refusal to look for another way.

This current wave of pacifism in Europe is only going to last a few generations, at most. I'll probably see the end of it, in my lifetime. Human nature behaves in cycles. Sort of like stock prices, they go up, they go down - always fluctuating. 20th century for Europe, you could think of as a price crash for the stock, so naturally there will be a long recovery period. But it WILL fluctuate again. It's inevitable - it's human nature. The tribal instinct is practically impossble to completely suppress. And like a stock price, it will 'break out', it's only a matter of time.

And what's your reply going to be? That Europe is so incredibly civilized, the craddle of Western civilization - this could never happen? Many centuries ago, the same was said about other parts of the world, which are now in shambles, small arms shell-casings littering the streets. Total collapse of 'civilization'. Bottom line; nothing lasts forever, and human nature is massively consistent. It's only a matter of 'when', and what catalyst.

I observe; that's really the one thing you can count on - the consistency of human nature... our instincts making us behave in certain trends. Basic, animalistic instincts. The best thing you can do, is learn these (unimpressive, in terms of the 'civilized ideal') instincts, so you can see things coming, before they happen. But to deny them - that is foolish. One should always be aware of the powerful forces at work, around him. Taking them for granted, is the key to unpreparedness.

 

[Erik Mesoy]

I refer you to Collapse.

 

[Stylesjl]

The war was dumb from the start, Iraq is a mess and we should withdraw from it. I can't beleive people still trust in the Bush administrtation especially after there were no WMDs. But never mind that, we'll just cook up another reason to invade after the fact

I have a feeling this war will turn out like Vietnam, we'll fight a pointless war for a while and then withdraw when we realise it was a dumb idea in the first place

 

[Verbose]

This current wave of pacifism in Europe is only going to last a few generations, at most. I'll probably see the end of it, in my lifetime. Human nature behaves in cycles. Sort of like stock prices, they go up, they go down - always fluctuating. 20th century for Europe, you could think of as a price crash for the stock, so naturally there will be a long recovery period. But it WILL fluctuate again. It's inevitable - it's human nature. The tribal instinct is practically impossble to completely suppress. And like a stock price, it will 'break out', it's only a matter of time.

And what's your reply going to be? That Europe is so incredibly civilized, the craddle of Western civilization - this could never happen? Many centuries ago, the same was said about other parts of the world, which are now in shambles, small arms shell-casings littering the streets. Total collapse of 'civilization'. Bottom line; nothing lasts forever, and human nature is massively consistent. It's only a matter of 'when', and what catalyst.

I observe; that's really the one thing you can count on - the consistency of human nature... our instincts making us behave in certain trends. Basic, animalistic instincts. The best thing you can do, is learn these (unimpressive, in terms of the 'civilized ideal') instincts, so you can see things coming, before they happen. But to deny them - that is foolish. One should always be aware of the powerful forces at work, around him. Taking them for granted, is the key to unpreparedness.

The problem with your argument is less that Europe is assumed to have somehow has supressed "tribal instincts", than that you assume these must be directed in a specific way against specific objects.

Either you can argue that somehow the present peacefulness of Europe is "against nature", which would be problematic since you also claim the opposite to be eternal human nature, hence we shouldn't be able to shake it (if we do it indicates it's not anyway). Or, if you're right about this, then the EU just channels these things in new ways.

European "peacefulness" is also a very relative thing, considering how armed to the teeth our nations all are. It's just that the US lugs even more weapons around, and uses them with less compunction. It's the US that's deviant (in the sense of "not-average" in its military build-up) here. A lot of Americans just tend think of it as normal 'cause it's their nation doing it.