Are We All Wrong on Iraq?

[Lambert Simnel]

Yes, we could all be wrong, although given the disparity of views on this forum its almost inevitable that someone on CFC will turn out to have been right!

Quite true. And about 95% of the posters will claim to have been proved right....

 

[C~G]

I'm sure many of us are familiar with the phrase "armchair general", but is it possible that we're all being armchair generals, with no real first-hand knowledge of the Iraq situation?

I'm not questioning the validity of our opinions, because they're all valid; but are our opinons all that right?

With the same logic we can forget being "right" about science, religion, legal issues, politics, economy and even relationships and only listen those that are "experts" of those fields.

I remember reading same kind of claims about Iraq already while back and the main reason behind these kind of things I believe was to tone down the criticism and just accept what is happening because "the people in charge know better" than us what is right for the situation as we aren't aware of all the factors that must be taken into consideration.

There's no right or wrong in any of these issues, just opinions and possible options for future actions based into them.
Or how else few thousand service men are sent back in bodybags?
Because the operation went as planned?

It doesn't really matter from where the opinions come they are always shots in the dark.

 

[Lambert Simnel]

The average person posting on CFC has no clue how to prosecute the Iraq campaign. Some want to win and are frustrated that we are not free of the commitment and may never be. Some want all the troops out no matter what the cost or consequence. Some want to see America defeated at every turn. Some only want America to fail because of the administration. The bottom line is everyone here is focused on the result. As far as how to conduct the campaign, unless Colin Powell is a or someone like that is a poster here, I think most opinions on strategy and tactics are shots in the dark.

Good post, Keshik. We do have some posters with military experience here, but I think they mostly admit that their involvement is fairly low level - they're likely to have a better idea (if only from the mindset and training) than the rest of us, but, overall, we do appear to be a set of self-proclaimed experts on military matters.

 

[Bronx Warlord]

Do most of your fellow Marines on the ground feel this way? I know when we first went in most of us had the same thoughts; we had enough to defeat their military, but not maintain peace or fight insurgents. Reminded me of the mistakes the nation made by trying to rely on technology for intel instead of people on the ground.

I put it like this... we have a few thousand nails and for some reason are useing sledgehammers. More light, qucik smaller hammers would be better suited for this type of job. It's a company commanders war, if that makes sense.

 

[Bozo Erectus]

With the same logic we can forget being "right" about science, religion, legal issues, politics, economy and even relationships and only listen those that are "experts" of those fields.

Politicians wouldnt be allowed to interfere with stem cell research, abortion, cloning, gay marriage, etc, because they arent experts in those fields.

 

[.Shane.]

I had this thought yesterday night; what if we're all wrong on Iraq?

We've all discussed countless numbers of times of what's wrong there, but aren't we largely unqualified to have really have a clear picture on just how wars are supposed to be fought? This doesn't necessarily apply to anti-war people, because their interest is more in stopping the war rather than fighting it.

I don't know how accurate this can be, but are our opinions on the military or political situation in Iraq all that intelligent? There are others out there, within the military and civilian worlds, who have studied for years on the Middle East, desert combat tactics, etc., so how really right can our opinions be?

Tough call. Everyone's different. I don't pretend to know what everything is like in Iraq. But, I try to find good, valid newsources and balance even those w/ a healthy dollop of skepticism.

At a personal level, each individual has different experiences that may or may not give their opinion more relevance or accuracy. In my case, I've studied politics and US/World history substantially, so I feel pretty confident in my opinions regarding a lot of Iraq-related topics. Others may have military experience that is interesting/useful in understanding the psyche of the soldier as well as the nature and intensity of combat. Then there are others who's sole source of knowledge is Rush Limbaugh/their parents/The Daily Show.

The problem is, there's no qualifying exam to post.

 

[Lotus49]

Who is this 'they' we are supposed to be bombing and shooting? Such generalization without any specification concerns me.

they = anyone that would tend to call me (and my kind) an "infidel", and would actively seek to 'do something about it', via violence.

 

[tomsnowman123]

they = anyone that would tend to call me (and my kind) an "infidel", and would actively seek to 'do something about it', via violence.

If you subtract the word "infidel" that almost sounds like... America!

We may not be as extreme or cruel, but so far, we go in with a shoot first, ask questions later kind of mentality.

 

[Leonel]

Concerning the title of the thread. Is it "are we all wrong on Iraq" as in "are we wrong to have invaded it" or as in "are we wrong to be against it?"

 

[Shaihulud]

Yes i was wrong. I was under the impression that the Bush administration was corrupted and greedy for the oil in Iraq, threy turned out to be more incompetent or stupider than i thought. Should at the present time should te Bush administration install a friendly tyrant, it will furthur lose more goodwill and legitimacy with the American people, which i think is what worries Bush more than any other things lol! I think that the initial invasion by the Americans were popular among the Iraqis, but when the body count starts mounting, their popularity decrease. The Malaysia insurgency wsa a much smaller conflict, operated by a small minority group and whoose ideologies are hated by the majority, a very small drop in an ocean which fai;ed to take off.

 

[Bill3000]

The other day I was browsing around on Google maps, I went over NYC, and after checking out Wall Street, etc., I found my way over to the WTC 'hole' in the ground (didn't intend to go there, just wound up doing so). I sat there, and stared at it. Took only about 2 seconds for all my 'second thoughts about the war' to fade away into nothing.

Interesting, considering the fact that 9/11 had absolutely nothing to do with Iraq.

With the same logic we can forget being "right" about science, religion, legal issues, politics, economy and even relationships and only listen those that are "experts" of those fields.

While probably not things such as politics and religion - science, economy, and perhaps legal issues that arn't simply politics are all those issues which the opinions of those who arn't experts shouldn't be bothered with outside of a pique curiosity. The value of listening up to the experts and ignoring one's naivite depends on the field. And when it comes with politics - people should be at the very least educated on the issues.

 

[storealex]

There are others out there, within the military and civilian worlds, who have studied for years on the Middle East, desert combat tactics, etc., so how really right can our opinions be?

Why didn't you think the same about global warming? The experts disagree on Iraq, so we should listen to them, but the experts agree on global warming, so we should not listen to them? You have a strange logic


On topic, I know several people with first hand experience from Iraq, and they all say the same thing:

US did not plan for the peace, which resulted in violence. When the violence came, US adopted a "shoot first ask questions later" ROE. You see a civilian moving too fast? Shoot him, he might be a terrorist. You have reasons to believe there's a sniper in that building block? Bomb it with artillery. The ROE had the clear purpose of saving the lives of US soldiers, while being somewhat indifferent towards the Iraqis. The ressult is lot's of dead Iraqis, and an angry population which dosn't see the big difference between the rebels and the soldiers. Both kills civilians.
Angry population = more rebels.

So the problem get's bigger, which results in more US dead, and the total failure of the initial ROE.

I sure hope they'll send me to Afghanistan, Sudan or Kosovo instead... anywhere but Iraq...

 

[Lotus49]

If you subtract the word "infidel" that almost sounds like... America!

We may not be as extreme or cruel, but so far, we go in with a shoot first, ask questions later kind of mentality.

You seem to be forgetful of the chronology of events. We were attacked first, remember...? It was that, that resulted in the change of doctrine - to preemptive attack on threatening enemies, before they strike us. Or, if you prefer - a license to go take out Saddam. Notice, that was the only thing that actually resulted from the new doctrine. And now, even though all his political capital is used up over it, I'm sure it was worth it to Bush, because afterall, it was personal.

 

[Lotus49]

Interesting, considering the fact that 9/11 had absolutely nothing to do with Iraq.

Ask me if I care. Light 'em up. The more theaters of combat operations we have against these people, the better. I only hope this President of Iran is as stupid as he publicly seems...

Better to be actively fighting, rather that just sitting over here ignoring them, waiting for random acts of horrific violence from time to time. I say make the blood flow... that's the only real solution. Because realistically, there will never be peace, until one side wipes the other one out. So, let's get on with it, already.

And don't get mad at me. I didn't make things this way. They've been like this for thousands of years. I'm just a realist. Sometimes killing really is the best solution, when you're dealing with an avowed enemy that understands & aims for little else. "Know your enemy". And in this case, they're nothing but bloodthirsty killers - and there's only one real way to deal with them: follow Israel's example, and blast 'em. Repeatedly.

That's the reality of the world we live in. Look around. Might as well learn to digest it. Pacifism gets you nowhere, except over a barrel. Pacifists are in denial - about human nature, as well as the nature of life on this Earth in general.

Moderator Action: When I read a post like this, I gotta ask: If your enemies are bloodthirsty, what are you? You are hating a mirror, because it is that kind of thinking that makes wars innevitable.

Oh, well - I'll not debate while moderating. Feel free to believe whatever you want. Nonetheless, from this moment on, avoid advocating genocidal politics in CFC.

Consider yourself warned.

 

[Zardnaar]

Just about makes me laugh when people claim the US army is incompetant. Trained for the wrong type of warfare (conventional armys with tanks and frontlines vs insurgency) perhaps but not incompetant. Good news doesn't sell regardless if its a liberal/conservative news channel so you don't really here the good news about Iraq.

 

[storealex]

Just about makes me laugh when people claim the US army is incompetant. Trained for the wrong type of warfare (conventional armys with tanks and frontlines vs insurgency) perhaps but not incompetant. Good news doesn't sell regardless if its a liberal/conservative news channel so you don't really here the good news about Iraq.

The US troops have been given a wrong ROE, and yes they could be better trained to keep the peace and do policework, which is just as important in Iraq as conventional soldier skills.

And no that's not something I've picked up on the news (Typical counter argument btw. Evil leftwing propaganda right?). There's people in my platoon WHO HAVE SERVED THERE, and there's quite a big chance I'll be send there my self. Of course I do what ever I can to pick up information about what may be my future serving zone, and it's always the same story: US troops are too trigger happy compared to the Brits or our own troops.

 

[YNCS]

The trouble is, most if not all of us don't have the necessary background to know if the right strategy and tactics are being used in Iraq. Plus, we're not really aware of what strategy and tactics are being used. So how can we criticize things that we're quite ignorant about?

 

[boarder]

The problem as I see it with removing saddam from power which was the said reason for invading is that it left a power vacuum and now the Kurds, Sunnis and Shiites are all vying for there own bit, add in Insurgents and terrorists and you have what we have in Iraq today.

 

[Lotus49]

I don't claim to 'know' what's right - but I have gotten a pretty good sense of things over there, from working with those that've recently returned from Iraq. Main thing that comes to mind with regard to how you guys talk about it - is that you guys are seriously over estimating the place. You just don't understand what a $#%^hole that place is , for lack of a better term, thus you tend to (in an analogy) place this POS on a pedestal, and closely marvel at it.

It's not that complicated. The place is a Hell-hole. Seriously. You just don't get it. What kind of "great news" do you really expect to come out of there...? It's the most depressing, run-down, backwards place - more than you can imagine - if you've spent your whole life flourishing in a Western democracy. You're giving the overall situation more credit than it deserves.

All in all, the US troops are making the best they can of a miserable situation. And btw, I'm not bashing Iraq... just not sugar-coating it, like so many seem to do. I see no point in doing that. The reality of the matter is, that the country is so poor, and backwards, that you can't just take away the evil regime, and say "here's your freedom - welcome to the 21st century!" I never expected anything otherwise. I thought we were going to go in there and rampage & puppet the place. This whole idea of rebuilding the place into a Mesopotamian paradise in a few years is purely... impossible.

So if that's what you guys are waiting for - don't hold your breath.

 

[YNCS]

This whole idea of rebuilding the place into a Mesopotamian paradise in a few years is purely... impossible.

So if that's what you guys are waiting for - don't hold your breath.

However, that's what Bush, Blair & Co. promised us would happen. Saddam would be toppled, the Democracy Fairy would wave her magic wand, and Iraq would instantly become Heaven on Earth.