Arioch's Analyst Thread

[Venereus]

Actually, the manual kind of does:
"There are five main types of air units in Civilization V: helicopter gunships, missiles, fighters, bombers, and anti-air ground units". This may mean that, although technically a ground unit, it is for some reason classed as an air one. Now, why would they do so?

May be only air units can engage air units?

 

[KrikkitTwo]

May be only air units can engage air units?

More likely 'anti-air ground units' fight like air units when they fight 'normal' air units, (but move and stack like ground units)

but Gunships fight and stack exactly like other ground units and move almost exactly like ground units

 

[Jaybe]

This is how much it cost to the common warrior to become a legion :

At what game speed was that, though? Could halve or easily double that price, depending.
For me (at customary huge/marathon) it would most likely be higher.

Building/Unit cost projections based on screenshots without knowing its game speed is an invitation to errors.
(Not that I would do it differently)

 

[Schuesseled]

Yes, but the Legion is the only option here. If the upgrade would require Iron, it would provide options to upgrade to either Legion or Spearman, I assume. And there are no optional upgrades as they were in Civ 4.

Your right, so then of course you have this as upgrade paths:

Spearman -> Pikemen -> Musketman?/Riflemen

Warrior -> Swordsman -> Longswordsman -> musketman?/Riflemen

Archer -> Crossbowman -> Musketman?/Riflemen

Captapult -> Trebuchet -> Cannon

--

As you can see it will be substantially useful to have warriors in your early armies, and not just skip them for the superior spearman, because the spearmen can't become swordsmen unlike warriors.

(i put musketmen in a question mark yet, because we're not sure if there going to seperate from the upgrade path ala civ iv or integrated. i could see a nice effect for a path like this

Spearman -> Pikemen -> Musketman ->Riflemen

Warrior -> Swordsman -> Longswordsman ->Riflemen

This would allow for the spear based units to have a "greater" purpose come the invention of gunpowder, and keep longswordsmen in longer.

 

[stealth_nsk]

Warrior -> Swordsman -> Longswordsman -> musketman?/Riflemen

...

As you can see it will be substantially useful to have warriors in your early armies, and not just skip them for the superior spearman, because the spearmen can't become swordsmen unlike warriors.

No. Warriors are upgraded to spearman - we know it from several playtesters.
Only Roman could upgrade warriors to legion. I assume that's because it doesn't require iron.

 

[Thyrwyn]

Or...maybe they decided to get rid of dead end units. In a system where units stick around for a long time, this would seem to be the logical thing to do, no?

 

[stealth_nsk]

Or...maybe they decided to get rid of dead end units. In a system where units stick around for a long time, this would seem to be the logical thing to do, no?

Yes, but how it's related to Warrior - Legion upgrade?

Surely I'm dying to know if and how Cavalry, Frigates and Ironclads could be upgraded.

 

[Schuesseled]

No. Warriors are upgraded to spearman - we know it from several playtesters.
Only Roman could upgrade warriors to legion. I assume that's because it doesn't require iron.

I've not seen any such info, and i keep myself pretty much up-to-date. This is the first instance we've seen of a unit being upgraded (or nearly upgraded, is that button clicked, we don't know for sure.)

And according to well-of-souls its been confirmed that legions do require iron.

 

[stealth_nsk]

I've not seen any such info, and i keep myself pretty much up-to-date. This is the first instance we've seen of a unit being upgraded (or nearly upgraded, is that button clicked, we don't know for sure.)

I read twice about warriors being upgraded to spearman by goody huts.

And according to well-of-souls its been confirmed that legions do require iron.

Things are changing and not all sources are correct.

I found it extremely strange to upgrade resourceless unit to the one required resource (at least if there are other branches). If you have less iron than number of your warriours, you'll have them unupgraded till riflemen! Sounds very unlikely.

 

[Celevin]

I don't know why you guys are assuming that warriors can't upgrade to both spearmen, and swordsmen.

 

[Schuesseled]

I found it extremely strange to upgrade resourceless unit to the one required resource (at least if there are other branches). If you have less iron than number of your warriours, you'll have them unupgraded till riflemen! Sounds very unlikely.

Doesn't sound very unlikely at all, in fact i'd be suprised if you could upgrade a unit into one that required a resource without having adequate resources available. That's the entire point of limited resources, you'll need resources to make these elite tech units, so you may well have left over warriors.

I read twice about warriors being upgraded to spearman by goody huts.

Your talking about very old previews there, and besides the two aren't necessarily mutually exclusive, you can have upgrade paths for units that you actually upgrade and have an additional bonus such as a free warrior to spearman change for walking on ancient ruins.

I don't know why you guys are assuming that warriors can't upgrade to both spearmen, and swordsmen.

Although we can't rule it out, its a reasonable assumption, there aren't multiple slots for upgrade buttons like in civ 4. Just one upgrade button (with that pop saying upgrade to legion) suggest that units only have one upgrade choice.

 

[stealth_nsk]

I don't know why you guys are assuming that warriors can't upgrade to both spearmen, and swordsmen.

Because this screenshot doesn't show possibility of upgrading to Spearman. And Spearman is surely available, because:
- Spearman's Bronze Working is direct prerequisite of Legion's Iron working.
- Spearman doesn't require any resources.

 

[12agnar0k]

Whos to say they couldn't upgrade and then bring your iron amount to -1, which gives you lots of maintenance costs.

Lets ignore resource costs for a moment and just assume you can upgrade only with a cost of gold and if you so happen to go into negative resources you just get increased maintenance.

Perhaps Upgrading is no longer gives choice's, perhaps it will automatically choose the highest unlocked unit on your upgrade path.
So if you have bronze working then a warrior will upgrade to a spearman but if you have iron working then a swordsman is the correct upgrade, and if you have steel then it would be the longswordsman.

This explains the evidence of seeing the Warrior be upgradable into both the Spearman and Legion a lot better than whats been suggested so far.

The paths would then assumeably go,

Warrior -> Spearman -> Swordsman -> Longswordsman,
(Longswords have tactical importance even in the renissance, so longswords might not be able to upgrade into muskets)
this is much simpler as now warriors and spearmen are on the same path.

Archer -> Crossbowman,
(I think this will carry on into musket but because your turning a ranged into a melee, it is debateable, so it might not be the case)

Catapult -> Trebuchet -> Cannon -> Artillery -> Rocket Artillery

......

In my opinion, to give the best next stage on the upgrade path it should go as such.

Longsword -> Rifleman -> Infantry -> Mechanised Infantry (or maybe paratrooper instead)
Crossbow -> Musketman -> Rifleman -> Infantry -> Mechanised Infantry (or maybe paratrooper instead)

The reason being so that the Longswordsman unit can exist along side musketmen easier. But the Rifleman will be better than both of these and this is where the two paths from early ranged and early melee will merge into renissance melee, with siege weapons taking the primary ranged role.
The Crossbows (Ranged) -> Muskets (Melee) would be a bit of an odd thing, but they are the next step up in Ranged combat even if the game mechanics will make it a melee unit so it can still be justified. An archer isn't going to turn into a cannon really so it would have to be the Musket.

...

As for goody hut upgrading that simply upgrades for free to the next stage of your upgrade tree.

 

[Schuesseled]

As i said that would make the limited resources concept redundant.

The reason why resources can go negative is because of pillaging and trading, the iron being given to you can be cut off, or your own supply can be cut off. (Both of which is a temporary thing to be solved, you can trade to get that iron back, or rebuild the improvement.)

With upgrading units, an army which is suddenly requiring lots of iron, when you had none in the first place doesn't make any sort of sense.

 

[SammyKhalifa]

I wouldn't think that you could have less than Zero pieces of iron. Seems way too gamey.

 

[Schuesseled]

You can but only because resources can be temporarily removed, through pillaging or losing a trading deal.

A minus number merely shows you no longer have access to the iron that built those troops you've got. Which means if the unit is lost then it can't be replaced, unless you replace the iron first. They also incur a heavier maintenance because those iron armour and swords can no longer be manufactured but have to be bought in to keep the unit fighting fit.

 

[stealth_nsk]

Doesn't sound very unlikely at all, in fact i'd be suprised if you could upgrade a unit into one that required a resource without having adequate resources available. That's the entire point of limited resources, you'll need resources to make these elite tech units, so you may well have left over warriors.

No, I was saying quite opposite. The situation where resourceless unit is upgraded to resourceful one should be exceptional in the game. I could imagine Frigate - Destroyer upgrade, because Frigate is the last resourceless ship at all. But jumping back and forth with infantry units sound like bad game design for me.

Your talking about very old previews there, and besides the two aren't necessarily mutually exclusive, you can have upgrade paths for units that you actually upgrade and have an additional bonus such as a free warrior to spearman change for walking on ancient ruins.

Gamescom is the latest source:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=9503256#post9503256

And it seems very unlikely what they could do this to your units. Goody huts are always good now and I don't consider unexpected upgrade path as always good thing.

 

[stealth_nsk]

With upgrading units, an army which is suddenly requiring lots of iron, when you had none in the first place doesn't make any sort of sense.

 

[Schuesseled]

No, I was saying quite opposite. The situation where resourceless unit is upgraded to resourceful one should be exceptional in the game. I could imagine Frigate - Destroyer upgrade, because Frigate is the last resourceless ship at all. But jumping back and forth with infantry units sound like bad game design for me.

It's not bad game design to me, you have your anti-horse, your horse, your ranged, your melee. These guys should upgrade into more of the same, resource cost be damned, if you have the resources good, if not then your gonna be stuck with inferior units in some categories.

And it seems very unlikely what they could do this to your units. Goody huts are always good now and I don't consider unexpected upgrade path as always good thing.

Oh i agree i'd be irritated if an ancient ruin could randomly turn my specialist mounted killing spearman into a trebuchet. But that doesn't mean the developers won't do something that unusual.

 

[SammyKhalifa]

Oh i agree i'd be irritated if an ancient ruin could randomly turn my specialist mounted killing spearman into a trebuchet..

It could be worse. Imagine what the spearman would think about it.