Armies: WOW!!!

[Arrian]

Under the original army rules, the only reason I ever built them was to get the Heroic Epic and increase my leader generation chances. Armies have come a long way since then.

-Arrian

 

[Akka]

Is there nobody here that find the concept of these armies (and of "great leader" too btw) to feel horribly artificial and coming out of the blue ?

I always deactivated both in any game I played. Bleh.

 

[pjmcb]

horribly artificial

I'm not sure exactly what the term "horribly artificial" means in the context of a video game where your ruler lives for 6000 years and you can upgrade a catapult to a cannon...

 

[cgannon64]

Yes it is "artificial" Akka but they have to represent superior unit organization (army) and leadership qualities (great leader) in the game somehow.

One thing I like about the 1/6 bonus is that it adds to the Army longevity, eliminating the "why can't I upgrade them" argument. Think about it. An Immortal army has 6 attack, which makes them useful up until Musketmen. A Knight Army has 6 attack, making them useful even around Cavs.

 

[civzombie]

Or longer.

I used my army of legions to take out a 4hp conscript!

 

[denyd]

For those people who test things (I barely have time to read the forums at work and play late at night at home):

Would an army of 3 Siphai would get 9 attacks at a 8 attack factor?

And if I was able to get 3 armies and build the Pentagon, I could get 4 Siphai in an army, then would they get the three armies each get 12 attacks at 8 attack factor?

It looks like



time...

 

[Akka]

Originally posted by pjmcb


I'm not sure exactly what the term "horribly artificial" means in the context of a video game where your ruler lives for 6000 years and you can upgrade a catapult to a cannon...

Please, give me a break with this worn and stupid argument.
Why not put giant purple butterflies as war unit if you discover the "Lullaby's forest" technology in the ancient time then ?

CGannon : well, these "armies" just pop out from nowhere and don't feel in the spirit of the game. Feels like something that was added for the sake of adding something.

 

[cgannon64]

An Army of Siphai has (8*3=24/6=12) 12 attack.

Wow! And they have blitz, and four moves. That would be absolutely killer, impossible to stop.

 

[zorven]

Originally posted by cgannon64
An Army of Siphai has (8*3=24/6=12) 12 attack.

You use funny math

8*3 = 24 + 24/6 = 12


But shouldnt' it be:

8*3 = 24 total value

24/3 = 8 avg

8/6 = 1 (rounded down) army bonus

8 + 1 = 9

 

[cgannon64]

This is what I did:

8*3=24

24/6=4

8+4=12 attack

Doesn't that follow these rules:

You add the raw attack values of all the constituent units. You divide the total attack values by 6, and round down the result (or so it has been stated elsewhere). The rounded result is added to the army's attack value for purposes of combat resolution. For example, an army composed of 3 knights would have an effective "attack value" of 6 rather than the knights' normal 4. (3 units with 4 attack = 12 combined attack; 12/6 = 2; 2 added to knight attack of 4 = 6). So that 3 knight army becomes a 12HP, 3-move, 6 attack, 4 defense, blitz-enabled, pillage-without-cost war machine.

I don't know where you go the 24/3 step from.

 

[zorven]

Oh, don't mind my thoughts...

Your formula appears to be correct, I was just clarifying (the first part of my post) the math on how to get your result as what you wrote mathmatically didn't make sense.

 

[Tacit_Exit]

So its true that once you get the Mil. Ac. and Pentagon, a four unit Army has double attack and defense of constituent units?

Four Sipahi Army: 16/6/4

 

[cgannon64]

I know it made no sense to look at the equation. But in my head...

 

[CyberChrist]

Zorven is right

The formula needs to be read as follows:

[Total strength] = <strength of unit #1> + <strength of unit #2> + <strength of unit #3> + <strength of unit #4>
(strength of unit can be either attack or defence)

[Average strength] = [Total strength] / <number of units in army>

[Bonus strength] = [Average strength] / 6
(if you have the Military Academy then divide by 4 instead)

[Full strength] = [Average strength] + [Bonus strength]


In your case with the 3 Siphai army attack strength it would come to 9 (assuming that the end result is rounded down)

[Total strength] = 8 + 8 + 8 = 24

[Average strength] = 24 / 3 = 8

[Bonus strength] = 8 / 6 = 1,3

[Full strength] = 8 + 1,3 = 9,3

If you have the Military Academy then it will come to 10

[Bonus strength] = 8 / 4 = 2

[Full strength] = 8 + 2 = 10


Number of units in army wont alter the bonus you get, unless the units are of differing strength.


EDIT: removed a comment about army size that might have caused confusion

 

[Catt]

The numerator of the 1/6 function is not the average of the constituent units' attack values, it is the sum of the values. A 3 sipahi army would be (8+8+8)/6 = 4. The original attack value of 8 is increased by 4, making an attack value of 12. The same army could attack up to 4 times per turn (since the army has an extra movement point and blitz ability).

 

[zorven]

Originally posted by Catt
The original attack value of 8 is increased by 4

Is the original attack value the average of the attack values of the units in the army?

 

[Sarevok]

damn, my armies are even going to be more dangerous.

 

[pjmcb]

Please, give me a break with this worn and stupid argument.

Actually, what's "worn and stupid" are pretetnious proclamations declaring this or that feature unrealistic and beneath a given player's dignity.

I'm sure you are an undying purist, way above such mundane proletarian devices as Great Leaders and Armies.

Me, I love the new Armies, and look forward to building many in the months to come. Further, I think the GL device has added significant flavor to the game (and, I might add, a touch of "realism", but we won't debate that here).

But then I guess I'm just worn and stupid...

 

[Akka]

Rather than getting on your high horses, perhaps you should try to understand first, ok ?
I say "worn and stupid argument", which, according to my - granted, non-native - english, means that the argument of saying "there is already something that is not strictly like in reality, so it's a problem to add any amount of things that are not realistic either" is worn and stupid.
I don't remember saying that any people liking armies and/or GL is stupids. I don't even remember saying that armies and/or GL are stupid themselves. I just remember saying that the argument was stupid, and I still say it is.

I don't like GL and armies because I find them totally artificials, and consider they don't add anything good to the game, and I'm wondering WHY people enjoy them. I didn't insulted people who enjoyed them, nor said they are stupid to do so.

So get your facts straight before answering, next time, will you ?

 

[Pyrkaige]

Originally posted by Akka
I don't like GL and armies because I find them totally artificials, and consider they don't add anything good to the game, and I'm wondering WHY people enjoy them.

To use that classic quote from the redoubtable Sid Meier himself, "A game is series of interesting choices." The notion of Great Leaders and the armies that can come from them presents a large number of interesting choices that did not exist previously, and that add in broad ways to how the game represents certain parts of history, as mentioned above.

When you get a MGL, you have to choose between using it for an army, or going to build a (now small) wonder with it. Once you have the army, there is always the choice of what units to put in it, and whether to wait for the next level of more powerful units. And that's before dealing with the tactical choices that wouldn't exist before having the army. The new SGL add other choices, between rushing great wonders or gaining scientific bonuses.

Is this "artificial"? Perhaps, in the same way that a Golden Age is artificial, especially if started when some military unit formed 2000 years ago winning a conflict and suddenly sending its home civilization into years of extra growth. That isn't very "natural", last I checked.

Fortunately for you, CivIII can be modified so that you don't have to deal with leaders or armies at all if you wish (more choices!) That might work best for you personally, instead of persistently whining about something that the vast majority of players seem to enjoy.