Txurce
Deity
It is supposed to work the way you thought, and generally does. The one-shot exceptions come when stronger ships shoot at weaker units. I'm surprised a galley could do that.
Armies
- Thread starter Thalassicus
- Start date
Dunkah
Emperor
Generally I find that Civillians are pretty easy to one shot with a ship that has a ship to ship combat promotion. Once you hit ship of the line and destroyers even most military units can be one shotted.
Something about Cannons/Artillery though make them almost unsinkable/ immune to ship bombardments. I've seen one survive 7 shots from various types of ships. All in the same turn.
Something about Cannons/Artillery though make them almost unsinkable/ immune to ship bombardments. I've seen one survive 7 shots from various types of ships. All in the same turn.
Thalassicus
Bytes and Nibblers
Ranged vs ranged battles use the defender's 
for combat, and siege units generally have a higher than the comparable melee 
strength of other units. (The exception to this is ships, which use when defending against other naval units.)
for combat, and siege units generally have a higher than the comparable melee strength of other units. (The exception to this is ships, which use when defending against other naval units.)
mitsho
Deity
Which is totally counterintuitive realism-wise and should be done differently... 
Ahriman
Tyrant
It works fine for gameplay; if ranged attack units used their normal strength to defend against ranged attacks, they would get 1-shotted like crazy.Which is totally counterintuitive realism-wise and should be done differently...
* * *
Another issue I noticed running the beta; the early game is really *really* dangerous when barbarian camps start with poachers on them and when the poachers shoot at you. The poacher was doing 5-6 damage to my warrior on rough terrain, just because I ended my turn 2 tiles away from them.
I think barbarian camps should start with brutes, and generate poachers only after some number of turns.
mitsho
Deity
We're talking about naval warfare though and it doesn't make any sense that ranged units are better at defending in embarked mode than other units... It's unfortunate, but cannot be helped and I guess it's a relic of the fact that they (apparently) ran out of time to create proper naval warfare in Vanilla Civ 5.
I agree on the second point though.
I agree on the second point though.
Txurce
Deity
I tend to like dangerous barbs, but that said... if your Warrior survived without a real problem, then what's the problem?
Ahriman
Tyrant
The problem is that a warrior has no chance vs a poacher, because the poacher defensive strength is so high. You can run away, but 6 damage is 2 turns of healing (plus the turn to run away).
And there were 3 barb camps within 8-10 tiles of me, all that started with a poacher. This totally prevented me from exploring.
Its one thing to have barbs that are dangerous a few dozen turns in, once you have a chance to build a military unit or two, but in the extreme early game its just too much. Barbarians should not stop civs from meeting each other.
I also worry what must be happening to the AI.
Txurce
Deity
I'm playing a game with v117.1, and can attest that nothing's happening to the AI. Everyone (including me) is expanding nicely. What I do have to do now to kill a barb poacher is to hit him with two units. I think this is Thal's intent. that we could attack a camp with a single warrior and know we'd probably take it soon after felt like too much of a gmme to me.
Ahriman
Tyrant
Even with 2 units its risky; what if a second poacher pops out during your attack, as happened to me on ~turn 20?
You're at serious risk for losing a unit or two.
Anyway, I'll keep testing and see how it goes, it may just be that I had really bad luck this game, getting totally surrounded by poachers.
You're at serious risk for losing a unit or two.
Anyway, I'll keep testing and see how it goes, it may just be that I had really bad luck this game, getting totally surrounded by poachers.
Thalassicus
Bytes and Nibblers
Try a scout > scout > worker opener. After the two scouts are done finding a site for city #2 I gang up a scout+scout+warrior trio on camps. With one unit taking fire and healing, the other two have no problem killing the barbarians. This is partially why I increased the heal rate in unowned territory from 2 to 3 per turn. Once the barbarian situation is under control I send off a scout to explore further. With Guerilla 1+2 scouting goes very quickly (visibility, movement, and defense bonuses).
All that said, now that poachers defend themselves, the melee bonus I gave them a few months ago is probably redundant. I'll reduce it one point. In v117.2 I also increased the minimum range between capitals and barbarian camps to 6 (was 5). 
The odds of a poacher or brute spawning are 50/50, so getting three poachers happens in 1 out of 8 of games, somewhat rare.
All that said, now that poachers defend themselves, the
melee bonus I gave them a few months ago is probably redundant. I'll reduce it one point. In v117.2 I also increased the minimum range between capitals and barbarian camps to 6 (was 5). The odds of a poacher or brute spawning are 50/50, so getting three poachers happens in 1 out of 8 of games, somewhat rare.
Txurce
Deity
Your game sounded pretty brutal to me!
Gamewizard
Emperor
- Joined
- Jan 24, 2011
- Messages
- 1,234
I enjoy the barb camps and think it is awesome that you need a group to take them out.
glider1
Deity
In my last 116 king game, I saw a situation where I think the barbs were attacking Songhai's 2nd city. The city was burned half to the ground but survived. There were no other AI's at war with him I'm pretty sure. Songhai never became an influential civ but the city was saved (it slowed Askia down?) Unfortunately I erased the autosave of it. Something to keep an eye on? Is it possible for barbs to gang up and try and take a city? Now when an AI scout manages to traverse pangaea+ and scout my territory, I actually applaud it, because it managed to find a path through the barbs and survive!
Cheers
Cheers
Atlas627
Deity
- Joined
- Aug 25, 2011
- Messages
- 3,124
They can't take cities, if they would take it they instead "pillage" it, stealing gold from your treasury and disbanding the barbs.
I think it is good to have barbs strong enough to perhaps attack cities. The game can certainly be slowed down in my opinion. A Standard length game is 500 turns. Assuming somebody wins before a Time VC, a game should last 400-470 turns in my opinion. Right now we have victories at 250 or even 200 turns! (see GoTM)
The problem is when some civs get screwed while others don't. This happens all the time with map generation, but if barbs get compounded upon that, then it might get out of hand. Especially for the AI.
So either make everybody likely to be equally screwed, make the AI less likely (slightly) to get screwed, or make people with good map luck somehow get more screwed in proportion to their map luck.
Ahriman
Tyrant
Great, that is probably a sufficient fix.All that said, now that poachers defend themselves, the
Four actually; three camps and then the first roaming unit were all poachers, so 1 in 16. Sounds like I got unlucky.
Txurce
Deity
One downside of the otherwise highly interesting Continents Plus maps is that there are a lot of barb ships, as well as barbs on islands. This is a perverse problem when playing Germany. I now have not only a lot of stranded units, but also a crazy number of ships. They'll prove useful once they're upgraded, but in the meantime I can't even build units, given how much over the limit I am (with four cities).
Are landsknecht bonus vs mounted and defense bonus supposed to persist after upgrade to musketmen? If so, they do not in v117.
Maybe I'm wrong, and am just thinking of the persisting phalanx promotion, but I could really use the bonus now that I'm facing Russian Cossacks...
Maybe I'm wrong, and am just thinking of the persisting phalanx promotion, but I could really use the bonus now that I'm facing Russian Cossacks...
Txurce
Deity
I don't think Landsknechts have this bonus - they're just cheap. Pikemen in general do, and it doesn't persist after an upgrade, naturally.
Ahriman
Tyrant
No, they're not intended to. Phalanx is, but the phalanx bonus is anti-melee, and melee become obsolete sooner than cavalry.
The lack of any persistent bonus is part of why I find the Landsknecht dull. In fact, they have a persistent penalty; they are more expensive to upgrade to muskets.
I think it is entirely appropriate though that Cossacks totally dominate muskets, even muskets that used to be landsknechts.
