arrakis terraforming victory?

[Ahriman]

That is, if you place a chain of farms in vanilla with Civil Service, I don't think the tiles show up as having fresh water.

I think you're right. Well, just make the spice blow check whether any adjacent tiles have water when it blows; that is, the spice blow normally makes spice on its target tile and some secondary adjacent tiles. Now, on each of those secondary adjacent tiles, have it first check whether a tile adjacent to the secondary tile has fresh water access, and if not, then revert prevent

So, if I build a windtrap or reservoir of liet, and build a sandgrass on an adjacent tile, then any tiles adjacent to *that* can't get spice on them.

Another point with anchor grass and sandgrass; remember that part of the point of this is converting the *desert* (ie the coastal/ocean tiles). It may not be worth building anchor grass on land tiles that you could more profitably cottage. Definitely you're not going to want to rip out your existing cottages and turbines.
So the terraformer needs to be amphibious, and to be able to build land and ocean improvements, and the AI needs to understand this.
I expect that you need two different improvements for this, a land-based and an ocean-based.

I agree, but I am having a little trouble finding the hooks for this. I can see positive civic reactions but not negative ones.

I mean: can't you make multiple preferred civics for a faction? So Pro-water will be the preferred civic for 4 factions (2xFremen + Atr + Tl), and pro-spice the preferred civic for another 4 factions (BG + Imp + Gui + Hark)?
In addition to whatever other preferred civics they have?

 

[davidlallen]

So the terraformer needs to be amphibious, and to be able to build land and ocean improvements, and the AI needs to understand this. I expect that you need two different improvements for this, a land-based and an ocean-based.

I am a little nervous about changing coast/ocean to land during the game. My thought was that since the Reservoir is buildable outside cultural borders, you would pick a relatively useless island or peninsula, and build the reservoir there.

I mean: can't you make multiple preferred civics for a faction? So Pro-water will be the preferred civic for 4 factions (2xFremen + Atr + Tl), and pro-spice the preferred civic for another 4 factions (BG + Imp + Gui + Hark)?
In addition to whatever other preferred civics they have?

As far as I can tell in the schema, each LH can have one preferred civic. More than one LH can have the same preferred civic. But I cannot find any way to make an *enemy* this way. We can say, civ X has a preferred civic Y, civ Z is using civic Y, so civ X gets friendlier with Z. We cannot say, civ X has a hated civic Y, so civ X makes an enemy of Z.

 

[Ahriman]

I am a little nervous about changing coast/ocean to land during the game.

Agreed, but you don't actualyl have to do this. You just have a naval improvement (build desert anchor grass) that upgrades to another naval imrovement (desert sandgrass), and then a land improvement (build
My only worry

All the sandgrass and anchor grass imrpovements do is increase tile yields; thats the point; it feels like you're terraforming what once was desert and making it usable. It can still be ocean as far as unit access and the like is concerned.

Another thing; you'd want to make it so sandworms can't enter an anchor grass or sandgrass tile (they're repelled by the water content).

My thought was that since the Reservoir is buildable outside cultural borders, you would pick a relatively useless island or peninsula, and build the reservoir there.

But if the whole point of doing this is to increase tile yields (and get more water), why would you bother? What is the gain from building grass out in the middle of nowhere? Even if you coded in like some threshold of total world that had to be covered in grass to build the victory wonders, thats very inconsistent and its unclear that the AI would ever do this. I don't think the AI ever builds improvements outside of a city fat cross.

And we want getting these gains of extra water to cost you commerce through less spice access.

But I cannot find any way to make an *enemy* this way.

These are two different issues.
a) Issue one: how to make sure that some factions adopt each civic, so we don't have the whole world being pro-spice. This is a problem that the Planetfall mod tends to have; all the AIs have a tendency to adopt Hybrid Economy (as opposed to terraformed economy) because hybrid gave big reductions in city maintenance costs.
If the benefits of the civics aren't ones that the AI can easily understand, then you need to somehow hard-code which civic will be adopted by each AI. Preferred civic is one way to do this, but there are probably others.
b) Issue two: once we have some factions that are pro-spice and some that are pro-water, how do we make them hate each other?
I know that the Planetfall mod does this (try asking Maniac, who runs this mod) and FFH once did this too. But I don't know how. I'll ask Maniac.

 

[davidlallen]

But if the whole point of doing this is to increase tile yields (and get more water), why would you bother? What is the gain from building grass out in the middle of nowhere? Even if you coded in like some threshold of total world that had to be covered in grass to build the victory wonders, thats very inconsistent and its unclear that the AI would ever do this. I don't think the AI ever builds improvements outside of a city fat cross.

The idea is to have a unit, which the AI is forced to build, which can do nothing else except build this stuff. I think that would work. But I agree, the *point* of doing this is missing from the current design. I had originally suggested a Three Percent Threshold, but then my current design doesn't need it, and now there is pretty much no point except making the map look different. That is why we have discussion threads before implementation

a) Issue one: how to make sure that some factions adopt each civic, so we don't have the whole world being pro-spice. This is a problem that the Planetfall mod tends to have; all the AIs have a tendency to adopt Hybrid Economy (as opposed to terraformed economy) because hybrid gave big reductions in city maintenance costs.
If the benefits of the civics aren't ones that the AI can easily understand, then you need to somehow hard-code which civic will be adopted by each AI. Preferred civic is one way to do this, but there are probably others.

I agree this is a problem. I do not know for sure whether the LH favorite civic actually causes the AI to adopt it; I thought it was just to give a positive reaction bonus.

b) Issue two: once we have some factions that are pro-spice and some that are pro-water, how do we make them hate each other? I know that the Planetfall mod does this (try asking Maniac, who runs this mod) and FFH once did this too. But I don't know how. I'll ask Maniac.

I have just started this thread in the planetfall forum. But there is a related thread there on LH XML values, which "implies" that they do not actually have this feature.

 

[Ahriman]

Yay for discussion threads!

I would submit that tile yield changes are likely to be the most effective method of encouraging both human and AI players to undertake terraforming. Building anchor grass on the dunes to increase food income, but at the cost of reducing spice blows and so reducing commerce income.

Forcing the AI to build units that do nothing except change terrain seems foolish; and obviously a strategic human player would never build them.

 

[davidlallen]

Some updates for today.

We have found sdk source code for HatedCivics, at this link.

I locally created the Reservoir of Liet, Anchor Grass, and Terraform Worker as described earlier. The worker AI will happily run around and build the Reservoir inside cultural borders.

I have seen Anchor Grass get built, but since it gives no bonus at all, I'm not sure why the AI bothers. I have also seen the worker go back to sit in a city even though Anchor Grass could be built nearby. Perhaps some of the plots near a city get "reserved" for more useful improvements. I suppose that I could get "something" by making anchor grass give +1 food, er I mean water; then I assume the area inside cultural borders would fill up with this. If I make it auto-promote to sword grass, then we will get the effect of a pro-water civ cultural area turning greener.

I agree that it will be a problem to have the AI build the Reservoir outside cultural borders since I don't know how to get an escorting unit. But I really like the concept of having the Reservoirs built in "remote, secret locations away from the eyes of outsiders". Maybe with the groundwater marked as iAIObjective in 1.2.8, I can get the AI to build reservoirs on distant groundwater locations.

In summary this is still in the poking-around stage. Any suggestions for additional mechanics welcome.

 

[Ahriman]

I still hate the idea of there being no real benefit to the human player from building the grasses.

A visual effect really isn't enough; there needs to be a strategic reason why the human player will pursue terraforming. Why should a human player bother expending time/effort/energy in building reservoirs out in the middle of nowhere, where there are no cities? Why should they build terraformer units if these have no real benefit?

My recommendation is for water tile yield bonus, and to allow the grass to be built on desert/ocean tiles, so that you aren't forced to terraform over the top of your existing cottages/turbines once you get the tech requirements for building the grass.
If you don't like that, then find something else. But it would be unfortunate I think for this to be a cosmetic feature only.

 

[Deliverator]

The choice between terraforming and pro-spice can be a choice between more water = bigger cities, more specialistic,etc and more hammers from the spice and other spicey benefits that we haven't thought of yet.

Would it be possible to divert some of your water income into a terraforming fund. When have saved up enough water you can start changing the face of Arrakis. This reflects the strategy of the Fremen in the book most accurately. Don't know if it would work in practice.

Also, I'd like the effect of terraforming to be more dramatic and actually change the terrain. In FFH2, they basically have hell versions of various normal terrains. We can have verdant terraformed versions of the barren desert terrains. I guess there'd be two ways to achieve this (a) have FFH2 style spells just like Spring and Vitalize which improve the terrain (without disrupting the improvements on it, but problems for the AI) or (b) when you are running the terraforming civic your terrain gradually gets greener in a similar way to the Ancient Forests appearing when running Fellowship of Leaves in FFH2. You may have to make it hard to run terraforming - like you get a Civ wide water penalty because all your water is going towards it.

You could even have forests start sprouting up too, given enough time.

We should make sure worms can't enter the water rich terraformed terrain which would be another benefit of the strategy.

Also, I still like the Sirocco wind idea I described in the Water for Food thread.

+ Maybe link water into the terraforming ideas - I had an idea that when you pass the Three Percent Threshold you start getting Sirocco winds that move around like sandstorms. When these pass over your windtraps you get extra water. Also could you divert some of your water income into a terraforming fund somehow - then collecting water takes you closer to a Terraforming victory.

This idea is right out of Kynes' death scene in the book, where he keeps hearing his father, Pardot Kynes, describing how Arrakis can be terraformed.

 

[davidlallen]

I still hate the idea of there being no real benefit to the human player from building the grasses.

Look, I agree with you. Can you suggest something which will work, and which the AI will understand? That is where I am stuck. It seems the AI will not bother to build improvements which offers a small benefit such as +1 water, outside the fat cross let alone by constructing some outlying outpost type structure. This is disappointing but maybe we can find some other creative solution. When I have a chance I will try out making the Reservoir of Liet buildable on groundwater, which already has iAIObjective; that may encourage building this outside cultural borders.

Also, I'd like the effect of terraforming to be more dramatic and actually change the terrain.

We agree on the goal. Now to get some mechanics ...

Would it be possible to divert some of your water income into a terraforming fund. When have saved up enough water you can start changing the face of Arrakis. This reflects the strategy of the Fremen in the book most accurately.

Interesting idea. There is a field in buildinginfo which allows changing the yields. For example, palace gives +8 commerce. That means it should be possible to have a building which gives -1 water. With a high iAIWeight, the AI may build it. Perhaps this building could be the one which randomly generates upgrades to your terrain. But still we need some way for the player and AI to put in work, which causes green to spread.

 

[Deliverator]

Could the negative water building (we could make the Reservoir of Liet be this) be a prerequisite for changing terrain to the more verdant version. To what extent does the AI use the terraforming spells (Spring, Vitalize) in FFH2? I know back when I was playing it a lot they never seemed to. Perhaps Kael has found a way to fix this.

Have you looked at the Terraforming modcomp that seems to be part of the Dune Wars SDK? Looks like it supports forest planting which could be cool for later stages of terraforming.
Link:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=320354

 

[keldath]

Deliverator,
your right, as i said before,

this mod is inside, the former can level hills and vise verse.

 

[Deliverator]

It sounds like they have a trick to get the AI using it too.

 

[keldath]

WELL, ITS AN SDK CODE , SO THEY PROBABLY MADE SURE THE AI WILL USE THIS.

DAMN...SORRY FOR The caps lock


anyway -

do you want me guys to get the eden project that i have and to form some sort of a transforming victory for version 1.3 that youll be able to go on from? i have something in mind for a few days now.

 

[Deliverator]

I'd say leave it out for 1.3. There is an ongoing discussion about this and I'd like something a bit more Dune flavoured than just an Eden Project...

 

[keldath]

sure buddy.

 

[davidlallen]

In the terraforming thread there is some debate about whether the AI uses it; for what seems to be the latest, see this post. There is no SDK component to this, as far as I can tell it is just python, and the AI is encouraged to use the improvements by some fake positive yields. So there is no big solution here. I think the AI does not use it, or if so, it may use it occasionally in fat crosses if there is no other improvement which gives higher benefit.

One other thought, however. How about the Armageddon Counter mechanism from FFH. We had been focusing on locally improving the amount of green improvements. If I understand AC correctly, it is more global, but those who are against hell terrain can send priests around to de-hell it, or whatever the right FFH term is.

It is amusing to me, because one very helpful/vocal player for Fury Road kept recommending to add a type of Armageddon Counter to Fury Road at every opportunity. I never looked up the mechanics, but maybe that is the right approach.

 

[Deliverator]

Could be interesting. The more negative water (terraforming reservoirs) you build the more the counter goes up each turn. As the counter goes up the terrain of the planet changes - becomes more green. In a way, that is modelling the Three Percent Threshold idea quite well.

Edit: You may be interested to read this thread I opened on Jacarutu, to try and discover why the Fremen proceed with terraforming when it ends up killing the worms:
http://www.jacurutu.com/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=1536

 

[davidlallen]

OK, here is a new proposal. Please feel free to hate this one too, constructively of course

Keep the same civics mechanism. We'll need to integrate the HatedCivics code from darkciv to make the negative diplo values work, but this can be added at any time. The pro-spice faction will have access to a tech which provides +1 hammer per spice harvester improvement.

The main mechanic is the Terraform Counter. It is a global value; as it increases, then more green terrain appears. The primary increase for TC is the Reservoir city building, which requires the pro-spice civic and has a high iAWeight. This has a -2 water cost and provides +1 to the TC. If you have 5 Reservoirs built, you can build one Reservoir of Liet wonder which gives +5 to the TC. As the TC increases, squares near the Reservoir and RofL will spontaneously produce anchor grass on unimproved plots nearby, which is somewhat green. This will improve over time to the swordgrass bonus. Perhaps there is a third level which is similar to the vanilla wheat bonus, but is visibly more green. Perhaps there is a fourth level which is actually forest, although I do not think we need this.

The windtrap already prevents spice from appearing in any adjacent plot. The reservoir will have the same effect. The RofL will prevent spice from appearing in a 2 plot radius.

This does not achieve the goal of secret, distant reservoirs. It is also not obvious how the AI would combat raises to the TC, except indirectly through wars with pro-terraform civs. But it does achieve increasing green-ness of the map. The favored civic and iAIWeight will hopefully cause the pro-terraform civs to build it. The +1 hammer of the pro-spice civic will hopefully cause them to adopt it.

It is small, but seems implementable. What do you think?

 

[Deliverator]

I still think that the changing needs to be at the terrain level not improvement level. There are unlikely to be too many unimproved plots, in which case the map is not likely to get much greener. It would be better if the underlying terrain improved and then whatever improvements you have built stay in place on top of them. Is this much harder to achieve? I know we'd need to create the verdant versions of each terrain, but at least we know the graphics exist.

Additionally, I think we could tweak for flavour a bit. Not sure I like the term Reservoir, we could use the term Catchbasin which is definitely a Dune term. We can call the Catchbasin building (the renamed Food Warehouse), Water Reserve or something more boring. Catchbasins are the pools the Fremen keep for Terraforming so it is appropriate. Also, if would be good if we could come up with a nicer UI representation than just a counter. I think the Pro-Spice and Pro-Water civics should be called perhaps Spice Economy and Way of Liet or something like that.

Also, you could use this Coca Plant resource as a placeholder for longer grass, but hopefully we can go the terrain road.

 

[davidlallen]

I still think that the changing needs to be at the terrain level not improvement level.

I think that in the mid to late game, the outside of the donut between the fat cross and the cultural border will be large enough to have these improvements. But terrain is just as easy. I still don't want to convert coast to land, but even doing that would be just a few more terrain types related to coast or ocean.

Also, if would be good if we could come up with a nicer UI representation than just a counter.

I don't have a recent (3.19) version of FFH, but I seem to recall the AC was a numeric value displayed in the end-of-turn button. I think a high percentage of DW players will also be familiar with FFH and the AC. If we copy how the FFH AC is reported, that should be fine.

I think the Pro-Spice and Pro-Water civics should be called perhaps Spice Economy and Way of Liet or something like that.

Sold.