Article "Traits in ffa and Ironman"
- Thread starter gavenkoa
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Ah ok, I guess it's not until medieval that cities start with buildings. So expansive is still good in classical, although slightly nerfed by the starting worker.
Fippy
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"useless" is an exaggeration, but yeah, charismatic was pretty weak for ffa. Most units don't live long once they start fighting, you can't farm up experience by killing AI archers over and over, and opponents will aggresively pick off your wounded units. So most units just have the experience that they're built with, usually 0/3/5 XP depending on barracks and civics or instructor. Charismatic ends up having almost the same promotions as anyone else.This i.e.Why would faster promos and more happy ever be useless in mpSpoiler :
The happiness helps early on, but most people teched monarchy early and went hereditary rule, so happiness wasn't much of a limitation. Again it's not "useless" but only a weak benefit.
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I delved into MP briefly back in the ladder days and it really was a different animal. Expansive was a highly valued trait. I think for one, you can't start with a worker immediately as you need to build a unit or two so folks don't try to snipe you. Then you can easily whip a worker at size two. Again, these were ladder games...not casual MP FFA. The were very fast and aggressive war games with teams or individuals, and turn timers/quick speed. So I agree with pi-r8 that the article was ok for what it was addressing at the time. Otherwise, it's obviously bunk to try to use it for guidance on learning single player.
Fippy
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Yep i know, but i have different experiences regarding Monarchy which was no priority in what i played / followed.
Almost always construction.
And while you cannot farm xp in multi, a quicker promo here and there can be vital for stack survival (healing up). Also means Agg is far from useless.
Almost always construction.
And while you cannot farm xp in multi, a quicker promo here and there can be vital for stack survival (healing up). Also means Agg is far from useless.
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ha..I recall Great Artists being the gp of choice in those games, so you can remove revolt from captured cities and push borders.
yeah..in a lot of those games I don't think Monarchy was even a consideration
yeah..in a lot of those games I don't think Monarchy was even a consideration
First of all, I wanted to make it very clear for the OP that what he has stumbled upon is not going to help him to get better. On the contrary, reading that article confused him even more. He doesn't play multiplayer, so you are right, it's not the article's fault if he thinks reading it will enlighten him on the real value of different traits.
What is bad advice in the article? A lot, some of what I already pointed out.
- it's not a disadvantage for FIN that it "binds you to using cottage economy", because it doesn't
- EXP is not for expansion
- PHI is not difficult to use, especially if you settle the
like the article suggests, which itself is usually bad though. Even if trade missions aren't available, there are still bulbs (GS: math, machinery, engineering; GM: MC, currency, CS; GE: MC, feud, engineering), academies and golden ages that beat settling by a big margin most of the time- agree with Fippy on CHA, should be one of the better traits with such setting actually.
is very hard to come by without and resource trades so +1/+2 is great. Less urgency to go monarchy- why isn't AGG useful? If the setting is about warring, of course it's useful both for cheap barracks and stronger melee units
I understand that the understanding of the game has improved tremendously since then and I'm not trying to bash the person who wrote it. It might be one of the best articles written about this game pre-2010.
Hmm well I disagree that learning multiplayer won't help you learn single player, or that either one is more "real" than the other. They're just different sides of the game.First of all, I wanted to make it very clear for the OP that what he has stumbled upon is not going to help him to get better. On the contrary, reading that article confused him even more. He doesn't play multiplayer, so you are right, it's not the article's fault if he thinks reading it will enlighten him on the real value of different traits.
What is bad advice in the article? A lot, some of what I already pointed out.
- it's not a disadvantage for FIN that it "binds you to using cottage economy", because it doesn't
- EXP is not for expansion
- PHI is not difficult to use, especially if you settle the
- agree with Fippy on CHA, should be one of the better traits with such setting actually.
- why isn't AGG useful? If the setting is about warring, of course it's useful both for cheap barracks and stronger melee units
I understand that the understanding of the game has improved tremendously since then and I'm not trying to bash the person who wrote it. It might be one of the best articles written about this game pre-2010.
For your specific points:
-Expansive lets you set up new cities faster, it definitely helps with expansion
-you can stil get an academy and a golden age or 2 without Philosophical, but doing bulb paths is awkward and dangerous in fast paced multiplayer
-I agree it's valid to delay monarchy, and then Charismatic helps, but it's still a weak trait
- Aggressive is good if you get into a very early war, like starting with warrior chokes. But it's better to avoid that if at all possible. Most of the fighting is done with mounted units and catapults, so the stronger melee units don't help much, you just save a small amount of hammers on the barracks
Admittedly I haven't played multiplayer in 5+ years, so I'm out of the loop too. I just think people are bashing this article too much without having played competitive multiplayer.
You missed most, if not all of my points. Even if the article was brilliant and describes exactly the way to play "ffa/ironman", it won't help OP, it will confuse him. That's why I tried to make it very clear for him that this is definitely not what he should be reading.
I'm sure people 10 years ago were very clueless about bulbing and bulbing paths. After 15 years of playing many are getting a hang of it.
This is not exactly what I said though. I said since he doesn't play MP (could he still play ffa/ironman somewhere if he wanted?) reading about the values of the traits in MP won't be helpful.
I guess this is semantics, but if the advice is "EXP is for expansion", especially players who are learning probably interpret it as "I am EXP thus I should expand (i.e. build more cities)". It would be a different thing to say "EXP helps you to make new cities productive faster" and that is what EXP does.
I'm sure people 10 years ago were very clueless about bulbing and bulbing paths. After 15 years of playing many are getting a hang of it.
I can get it like that.
I know that we need to fight for better spots, but it can't be done infinitely because of upkeep cost...
Still article mentioned about 1pop whip because of EXP. I didn't know that.
Great!
I wondered why articles of 2008-2012 so "stupid"?
Game engine source code (SDK) was revealed in May 2006: https://web.archive.org/web/20060428081831/http://2kgames.com/civ4/downloads.htm
From that time game mechanic is open to the public...
My explanation is that in 2005-2010 (when game started and was being supported) most of the players were casual.
I don't know dates for HOF, ladders, etc. I joined the game in summer 2019 ))
With a time and because of HOF or similar I assume that only highly devoted players are stayed and they were curious about improving game results.
I started to solve kossin's micro-challenges: https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/micro-challenge-central.499254/ and they are dated by Jun 2013. It is surprisingly far from the game release date...
I'd like to hear other's opinion why people were weak in 2006-2012 and became PRO later?
Well, because an EXP granary costs 30
, it can be 1-pop whipped, nothing more complicated than that.Because the game is complicated. Why didn't chess masters 100 years ago play as well as modern players? I mean the game had been known for hundreds of years already. People had correctly solved rook endings with one pawn in the 16th century already (which is quite an accomplishment btw, they are not easy).
Here's the problem - I didn't know that ))Well, because an EXP granary costs 30
I understand mechanic behind this. But there is no way to bring it to my attention except to read about it somewhere or watch others games...
For example I was excited of EXP trait and started to play by https://civilization.fandom.com/wiki/Bismarck_(Civ4) And what? Nothing helpful from EXP during early game, his starting techs are Hunting, Mining. Granary is 3 tech behind (Fishing, Wheel, Pottery)... And I need to go for Animal Husbandry first because of map layout. And I though about Bronze Working and Writing/Alphabet first before Wheel... I have plenty of 1F3H mines. Slavery conversion rate is the same (11/12/13/14F => 30H, or ~1:3-1:2)
How can that escape your attention? You read a lot of articles. Have your read civilopedia at all? It clearly states "double production speed of granary, harbor". Did you not understand what that means? If you start a game and put the cursor on top of the flag in bottom right, it tells you what the traits do. Why are you reading an old article on how someone values different traits in multi-player, if you don't even fully understand what the traits do?
Oh I can think of one way - read what the game tells you.
Didn't know. I checked traits via F8 (both my and AIs) + F12. Is there are way to get AIs traits as easy? Finding protective or creating opponents helps with game.
Never paid attention for special building speed. Some late building (like Bank for FIN) aren't game changing.
I was curious if cheap Libraries can be used instead of Obelisk, but they are for creating and they already have +2culture...
Fast building of Forge also can be beneficial. Should evaluate discounts... Thx for pointing out.
Another problem I don't remember all costs by heart. I know whip is 30H but I don't remember cost of Granary (60H). And those two facts should be joined together to elicit winning strategy. It's an explanation why. Now I know it.
F8 is good for that.
Bank isn't cheaper for FIN. Maybe it was in Vanilla/Warlord though.
Cheap libraries are awesome, definitely 2nd best discount after granary (EXP). +25%
is nice. Many people are willing to invest a great scientist for +50%.Yeh, 60
forge is nice. 60 courthouse (ORG) is worth something too. I think you should view these as completely different buildings if they are half-priced.Oh don't worry, you will learn to remember them.
Harv
Emperor
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Anyway, in the OP you said charismatic is your favorite trait. What is your favorite civilization and leader?
It looks like you are exploring EXP, which you might have previously written off as weak.
As for bad memory, right now I don’t remember which leader is CHA and EXP.
It looks like you are exploring EXP, which you might have previously written off as weak.
As for bad memory, right now I don’t remember which leader is CHA and EXP.
Harv
Emperor
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Thanks! Now that I think about it, that is an interesting combination!
30h - 1 chop granary
30h - 1 chop monument
Faster worker
+2 health, +2 happiness and counting
Faster unit promotion
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