Artificial Diamonds

[schlaufuchs]

 

[onejayhawk]

1/10th of the price? Do synthetic diamonds actually use material that is 1/10 as rare (or even finitely found) as real diamonds?

Besides, actual cut diamonds take a lot of skill to create, cause you start with the stone in its natural state. An artificial diamond will (i suppose) be cut from the start, so it is even more ridiculous to charge 1/10 of so large a price for something like that.
1/100 would be far more logical.

Manufactured diamonds have made big inroads in high tech manufacturing.

They have revolutionized the abrasives industry. Polycrystalline diamond (PCD) is referred to as the superabrasive. Diamond grit is much better than most of the alternatives but used to be prohibitively expensive. Now it is merely top shelf. I have a diamond grit knife sharpener in my drawer.

Another is plating diamond on a surface. It is possible to plate cutting tools. The tool can cut longer and at much higher temperatures. One interesting application is diamond plating glass for mirrors in orbital telescopes.

I am not claiming they come pre-cut, but actual diamonds need to be examined by various professionals by hand -prior to the latter stages of cutting - (to identify if they can be used for one largish diamond, or two smaller ones, and if they can be of various cut types or just the more standard ones, and which one is optional and of what worth by the end etc). That is a part of the production cost. I have to suppose that it isn't likely to have this part feature in synthetic creation, cause it would mean more chaotic process of producing the material, no?

There are many stages from getting the (natural) diamond rock, to having a finished diamond, and some of those are unlikely to be there with synthetic diamonds, is what i am saying.

You would be correct to say so. However, size is only one consideration in a gem diamond. Color and especially clarity are also very important. Making extremely clear diamonds is still more expensive than finding one.

You raise an interesting point. It will soon be possible to preshape large diamonds. Identical pairs and sets are difficult with natural diamonds, particularly in multi-carat size. With manufactured diamonds, it's just quality control. We saw this with pearls. Anytime uniformity is a major objective, natural could not compete.

J

 

[plarq]

I think this is on topic then.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

In his Grand Tour series, Ben Bova has his characters build spaceships out of diamond. Plus, if I remember correctly, part of the "food" that filters down to the level in Jupiter's atmosphere where the Leviathans live (an atmospheric ocean) is discovered to be diamond. @hobbsyoyo can correct me on this, if I'm not remembering correctly. I do know that diamonds falling from the sky was part of one of the novels.

 

[Broken_Erika]

artificial diamond will be useful when we get around to building orbital space elevators. Once we figure out how to make an artificial diamond strand long enough to go from the surface into space.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

artificial diamond will be useful when we get around to building orbital space elevators. Once we figure out how to make an artificial diamond strand long enough to go from the surface into space.

Bova proposed using nanotechnology.

 

[Bootstoots]

I hate the term synthetic diamond. Manufactured diamonds are real diamonds.

I will contradict metalhead. They are not used as jewelry because comparable natural stones are still significantly less costly (at least in money). There will always be a niche where natural stones are preferred, but most purchasers care for cut, color, clarity, carat weight, and cost before nature of origin.

There is a very interesting application, called a diamond anvil cell (DAC). It is not yet practical to grow diamonds with greater optical transparency and size than are found naturally. That should change in the next decade.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diamond_anvil_cell

Diamond anvil cells are really impressive. They can reach pressures of hundreds of gigapascals or millions of atmospheres, catching the bizarre phase transformations of matter at ultra-high pressure and letting people simulate the interior of planets when combined with laser heating. Oxygen will form an eight-atom red solid allotrope, nitrogen forms a polymer with a similar structure to diamond, xenon and a couple others become metallic, and hydrogen probably becomes metallic too although this has not been definitively observed. Metallic hydrogen is believed to exist in the lower layers of Jupiter and Saturn, giving them their strong magnetic fields.

Water forms a bunch of dense high-pressure ices, some of them at high temperatures. So for instance Ganymede and several other moons likely have a regular ice crust, then a giant ocean with more water than in all of Earth's oceans with a depth of hundreds of kilometers (compare to the Mariana trench, "only" 11 km deep), and then an "ocean floor" composed of ice VI, followed by a rocky lower mantle and an iron core. There are probably extrasolar ocean planets with the same sort of structure, but a temperature high enough to keep the ocean liquid at the surface.

And then the most impressive of all: ultra-high-pressure hydrocarbons at high temperatures can form diamonds, which may then rain down within the interiors of Uranus and Neptune. Experimental evidence for this was found using a diamond anvil cell. Using diamonds, they can make more diamonds, showing the possibility of diamond hail inside gas giants!

 

[Valka D'Ur]

And then the most impressive of all: ultra-high-pressure hydrocarbons at high temperatures can form diamonds, which may then rain down within the interiors of Uranus and Neptune. Experimental evidence for this was found using a diamond anvil cell. Using diamonds, they can make more diamonds, showing the possibility of diamond hail inside gas giants!

Which is basically what Bova said in Jupiter and Leviathans of Jupiter. Part of the Leviathans' diet is diamonds. The Leviathans don't even know that there's sentient life in the ship of humans that comes to visit them, let alone that the diamonds could be valuable for any reason other than as normal food.

 

[Samez]

Fun fact a bit OT:
There are currently several research projects ongoing regarding Diamond Silicon Carbide - i.e. diomonds are infiltrated with liquid Si at high temperatures which will react with some of the diamond to SiC. With altering process parameters and coatings you can influence the amount of diamond carbon to react to SiC.
The whole idea came from reinforcing SiC ceramics with diamond but they already got to diamond contents >80%.

 

[onejayhawk]

Diamond anvil cells are really impressive. They can reach pressures of hundreds of gigapascals or millions of atmospheres, catching the bizarre phase transformations of matter at ultra-high pressure and letting people simulate the interior of planets when combined with laser heating. Oxygen will form an eight-atom red solid allotrope, nitrogen forms a polymer with a similar structure to diamond, xenon and a couple others become metallic, and hydrogen probably becomes metallic too although this has not been definitively observed. Metallic hydrogen is believed to exist in the lower layers of Jupiter and Saturn, giving them their strong magnetic fields.

Water forms a bunch of dense high-pressure ices, some of them at high temperatures. So for instance Ganymede and several other moons likely have a regular ice crust, then a giant ocean with more water than in all of Earth's oceans with a depth of hundreds of kilometers (compare to the Mariana trench, "only" 11 km deep), and then an "ocean floor" composed of ice VI, followed by a rocky lower mantle and an iron core. There are probably extrasolar ocean planets with the same sort of structure, but a temperature high enough to keep the ocean liquid at the surface.

And then the most impressive of all: ultra-high-pressure hydrocarbons at high temperatures can form diamonds, which may then rain down within the interiors of Uranus and Neptune. Experimental evidence for this was found using a diamond anvil cell. Using diamonds, they can make more diamonds, showing the possibility of diamond hail inside gas giants!

You left out the best part. The diamond acts as a window. Unlike most industrial/scientific processes, you can watch.

J

 

[hobbsyoyo]

Yes, but the ability to grow diamonds as good or even better as the best mined ones is fairly recent. And that being more economical than mining them is even more recent.

Diamond is a pretty awesome material and high-quality diamonds have interesting scientific applications. So the more the mined diamond market is undercut and money flows into the perfection of diamond growth processes the better. I hope that this will shutdown most of the mining business in the not so distant future.

Apparently, De Beers is also seeing the writing on the wall and are trying to get themselves a share of the new market before the old ones disappears.

I really dislike the idea that mined diamonds should be considered more valuable than lab-grown ones in any way. Considering the problems that come with mining them, they should be considered a material of the past.

De Beers has been fighting (and losing) against Chinese synthetic diamond manufacturers flooding the market and against shifting consumer sentiments. A lot of people are beginning to realize diamonds are not actually that rare, are dramatically overinflated in cost in consumer markets and tend to come from mines with crappy working conditions or worse. All of that plus the appearance of (relatively) guilt-free, indistinguishable synthetics from China has cut into their profit margins. They tried 'educating' the public about how great 'real' diamonds are and also sent out people to train dealers to spot synthetics and found that consumers aren't taking to their re-education campaign and dealers can't actually distinguish between high-quality synthetics and 'real' diamonds reliably.

So yeah, the writing is on the wall and they have to make a shift.

In his Grand Tour series, Ben Bova has his characters build spaceships out of diamond. Plus, if I remember correctly, part of the "food" that filters down to the level in Jupiter's atmosphere where the Leviathans live (an atmospheric ocean) is discovered to be diamond. @hobbsyoyo can correct me on this, if I'm not remembering correctly. I do know that diamonds falling from the sky was part of one of the novels.

I'm sorry I don't remember this particular plot point. It's been a long time since I read those particular books.

artificial diamond will be useful when we get around to building orbital space elevators. Once we figure out how to make an artificial diamond strand long enough to go from the surface into space.

I don't think diamond would be useful for a space elevator. Diamonds are somewhat fragile despite being the hardest things in existence. If you drop one you can break it.

 

[onejayhawk]

De Beers has been fighting (and losing) against Chinese synthetic diamond manufacturers flooding the market and against shifting consumer sentiments. A lot of people are beginning to realize diamonds are not actually that rare, are dramatically overinflated in cost in consumer markets and tend to come from mines with crappy working conditions or worse. All of that plus the appearance of (relatively) guilt-free, indistinguishable synthetics from China has cut into their profit margins. They tried 'educating' the public about how great 'real' diamonds are and also sent out people to train dealers to spot synthetics and found that consumers aren't taking to their re-education campaign and dealers can't actually distinguish between high-quality synthetics and 'real' diamonds reliably.

So yeah, the writing is on the wall and they have to make a shift.

And De Beers had such a warm fuzzy reputation to start.

I don't think diamond would be useful for a space elevator. Diamonds are somewhat fragile despite being the hardest things in existence. If you drop one you can break it.

More brittle than fragile. I believe the term is spathic, ie exhibiting good cleavage. The elevator would use other carbon-lattice forms.

J

 

[Samez]

...
More brittle than fragile. I believe the term is spathic, ie exhibiting good cleavage. The elevator would use other carbon-lattice forms.
J

Quite correct - failure for brittle materials is dominated by defects (microcracks, inpurities / lattice defects, grainboundaries etc.)
Highest tensile strenght would be required for a space elevator cable to carry it's own wheigt, and would be available for defect free carbon-carbon bondings like graphen or diamond (graphen should be at >30GPa, steel is about 1-2GPa) - anisotropy of the different types would have to be considered. Exact values can only estimated (and probably simulated) as it is currently impossible to manufacture samples of required quality. In the end it is from a current tech level completely impossible to build a monocrystaline, lattice defects free material with a lenght of about 35*10^6m for a geostationary orbit or even more if working with a counterweight.
The current tech level allows pretty low defects in crystals in a scale of 10^-2m so we would have to increase the technological capabilities for atleast 8 magnitudes probably more like 10-12.
IMHO space elevators are still some generations away or perhaps even impossible.
(It would also be possible to estimate the amount of atoms to be in their place to see that entropy makes such a system unlikely)

 

[onejayhawk]

There was a long thread about the space elevator a year or two back.

IIRC the thinking then was a composite built around carbon nanotubules, sometimes called bucky threads. The practical matter was getting threads that were long enough and a developing vacuum-proof substrate. Diamond fiber could fill the role, as does glass in fiberglass. It won't be soon.

J

 

[gozpel]

I think as a couple of ppl mentioned, these diamonds are mostly made for things like cutting or drilling tools. A massive save for make and customer.

But if you're looking at that gorgeous chick over there, get a cheap ring, lol.

 

[metalhead]

They can reach pressures of hundreds of gigapascals or millions of atmospheres, catching the bizarre phase transformations of matter at ultra-high pressure and letting people simulate the interior of planets when combined with laser heating.

In other words, they produce liquid hot magma when you shoot them with a giant "laser."

 

[Bootstoots]

In other words, they produce liquid hot magma when you shoot them with a giant "laser."

Not just magma, but bizarre states of matter that are impossible at anything resembling normal pressure. These include metallic forms of elements that are nonmetals at normal pressure, strange allotropes like solid red oxygen in a cubic O8 structure and a polymer of nitrogen atoms, high-pressure forms of water ice (including ice IX, although it's sadly not all that interesting), and squeezing hydrocarbons into nanodiamonds. As J said, diamond is transparent to most wavelengths of light, so stuff can be observed directly too. Also, it's pretty easy to penetrate with X-rays, allowing X-ray crystallography to determine the atomic structures of things at high pressure.

The one thing they haven't quite gotten yet is metallic hydrogen, but there's reason to think that they're close. It's believed from theory that hydrogen becomes metallic at ultra-high pressures right on the edge of what diamond anvil cells can attain, and that this is why Jupiter and Saturn have very strong magnetic fields. There's been one claimed observation of metallic hydrogen, but nobody else believes them. I talked with a guy who does diamond anvil stuff; he said that that group claimed to have caught the metallic transformation with an iPhone camera and used the picture as evidence, and the data didn't really make sense. Not the best experimental technique.

But yeah, they can simulate Earth's mantle and core too, to experimentally observe how matter behaves at different depths and give geologists some experimental data. The laser is used to take stuff from room temperature to thousands of degrees in a short period of time.

 

[onejayhawk]

The biggest issue with diamond anvils is the tiny workspace. The usable area is less than a square mm. To double the radius, you need two gems eight times the size.

J

 

[Lexicus]

Not just magma, but bizarre states of matter that are impossible at anything resembling normal pressure. These include metallic forms of elements that are nonmetals at normal pressure, strange allotropes like solid red oxygen in a cubic O8 structure and a polymer of nitrogen atoms, high-pressure forms of water ice (including ice IX, although it's sadly not all that interesting), and squeezing hydrocarbons into nanodiamonds. As J said, diamond is transparent to most wavelengths of light, so stuff can be observed directly too. Also, it's pretty easy to penetrate with X-rays, allowing X-ray crystallography to determine the atomic structures of things at high pressure.

Your previous post on this caused me to dive into the wikipedia pages on all the different kinds of ice, which I found quite fascinating.

AFAIK it would be quite a theoretical upset if Jupiter and Saturn didn't have thick layers of metallic hydrogen outside their cores.

 

[Kyriakos]

"laser."

Iswydt