Asian Colonization (Pure Fantasy) Development thread

Kao'chai · Nov 29, 2008

let's tackle this slowly , this mod is meant to let asians colonize america , why let khmer or tibet be natives
^younflancy-some elements are included of your china are included in the mod , but how did you make china at the west?

BTW , can someone provide info on how you want the col leaders look like , and if possible help me with some matters such as the terrain.This should reach Ekmek or Geomodder , I can't do the art alone

Lubricus · Dec 1, 2008

Huayna Capac357 said:
No Norwegian (or at least translate it )

I apologise for that. veBear asked me to translate a Norwegian word, "firkant", into English for him, and I asked. That's the extent of it. Won't happen again!

younflancy · Dec 1, 2008

Kao'chai said:
let's tackle this slowly , this mod is meant to let asians colonize america , why let khmer or tibet be natives
^younflancy-some elements are included of your china are included in the mod , but how did you make china at the west?

BTW , can someone provide info on how you want the col leaders look like , and if possible help me with some matters such as the terrain.This should reach Ekmek or Geomodder , I can't do the art alone

No problem.
Actually I just changed the A_New_World map script, to make china start from the west side.
I am trying to change the game core to do something, like the starting locations, and Confucianism religion instead of Chritianity.

IIDX · Dec 1, 2008

Kao'chai said:
let's tackle this slowly , this mod is meant to let asians colonize america , why let khmer or tibet be natives
^younflancy-some elements are included of your china are included in the mod , but how did you make china at the west?

BTW , can someone provide info on how you want the col leaders look like , and if possible help me with some matters such as the terrain.This should reach Ekmek or Geomodder , I can't do the art alone

Masamune Date of Japan (If you choose him as one of the colonizationists) should be based off his younger appearances and he is portraited to be in many games, however most of the games he appears in makes him appear basically as the bishounen teenager with one eye. (Which, is not neccisarily a bad thing.)

But if he is to colonize the New Americas for Japan, why not base him off a similar model.

As for Ieyasu Tokugawa as the Emperor of Japan, You should use the same model they used for Civ IV, but make him more.. Regal in appearance. By now he should either have aged slightly progressively, or like Wilhem von Oranje in Civ IV colonization , should look differently, perhaps armor would fit him, giving him that look of a tyrant warlord.

Icaria909 · Dec 1, 2008

Sorry Kao'chai, you never mentioned where you wanted the game map to be placed. as you mentioned an asian colonization mod i assumed you meant a mod dealing with what if the asians colonized the pacific and oceana......

But this idea is also awsome, For some suggestions: keep with your original idea of civilizations but add a twist. to simulate the the longer trip across the pacific than the atlantic, make the asian ships move an eighth slower than european ships, and have them stay in their respective mothercountries for three turns rather than the two turns for europeans.

To simulate how the chinese "supposedly" got to america first almost a hundred years before everyone else, give them two pioneers and one military unit. That way when they start they can have more tiles improved or more cities than their european counterparts at the start of the game, but this shouldn't matter too much because of the slower travel time back to Penking.

For units, i would suggest giving chinese ships more room to store units and resources to represent the chinese treasure fleet with ships as big as palaces. give the japanese special privateers with increased pirating dues, as the japanese at this time were renown pirates around korea and china. Also, to simulate the indian's extensive use of mercenaries in their army, allow their colonies to purchase military units from the home country at two thirds the price of the europeans.

I hope this is what you were looking for........

holdenhk · Dec 2, 2008

younflancy said:
I am trying to change the game core to do something, like the starting locations, and Confucianism religion instead of Chritianity.

Are you sure about Confucianism? Buddhism seems to be a much more universal choice, not limited to one culture only (what's more, in Chinese culture Confucianism is NOT perceived as a religion but rather a philosophical system - Confucius was a teacher/scholar, not a prophet).

Lubricus · Dec 2, 2008

holdenhk said:
in Chinese culture Confucianism is NOT perceived as a religion but rather a philosophical system

The same could be said about Buddhism, in fact. And Confucianism was pretty prevalent among the elite classes in China, sort of like Mithraism was in the late Roman Empire. While Confucianism isn't an ideal choice, it serves the fuction best, IMO.

veBear · Dec 2, 2008

Completely agree. Confusianism would fit perfect for the chinese.

But here are some UU's i think could fit in the game:

Spoiler :

Huayna Capac357 · Dec 2, 2008

China could have a treasure ship as a UU.

Korea: Turtle ship replaces frigate.

Kao'chai · Dec 3, 2008

Isn't ChoKonu still the weapons of mass destruction by that time.and shouldn't india have fast workers
anyways :
Korea:
Rocket Carts&Turtle Ship
Siam
Ballista&somekind of jungle warrior
Indonesia
Bolomen and Vinta from my philippine civ?

BTW , thank you everybody for your full support !!!!!!!!

T_F · Dec 3, 2008

Heh, awesome idea. I tried doing this a while ago, but my modding skillz are... minimal.

Suggestions:
-Hasekura Tsunenaga as the colonist leader for Japan. In the 1630's he traveled to Rome via Mexico City. (King is Shougun Tokugawa Ieyasu, or just 'Shougun of Japan'. And yes, it is shougun - it's a long o.)
-The Asians deserve firearms. In fact, before sakoku (the isolationist policy), Japan had the best guns in the world.
-Most of the Asians (excluding the Indians) should probably have Buddhism instead of Confucianism. Buddhism was a lot more widespread, and works better like the Europeans' Christianity, so you can have Buddhist Temples instead of Churches. (And it's actually a religion at all.)
-If you want an Arabian or Muslim nation, go with the Ottomans.
-Most of the Asians (excluding any Arabs) get a plus to diplomacy with Native Americans, since they're not there to convert anybody. (Maybe give the hypothetical Europeans a minus whenever they build a mission.)
-Elephants as a resource for Indians and Southeast Asians
-I like the idea of Vijaynagara
-I think it'd be more interesting if you went with the actual names of the countries (like Ming (for the dynasty) or Zhōngguó instead of China, Nihon/Nippon instead of Japan, Hanguk instead of Korea), but it might get confusing.
-If you want, start it at 1421 or somewhere, even though Gavin Menzies is an idiot. (He cites Washington Irving as evidence that Columbus thought he was in China...)

Civ suggestions:
-Overall
--Peasants instead of Indentured Servants, but maybe keep 'Free Colonist'
-China (Ming, or whatever)
--Treasure Ship replaces Galleon
---1 extra move, 1 extra transport capacity (or just call the galleon 'treasure ship')
--Maybe the Zhuge Nu (Chu Ko Nu is a mistranscription) for the non-veteran colonial soldier, normal musketman for veteran.
--Chinese Noble is a good idea instead of Elder Statesman, maybe Confucianist Scholar
-Japan
--You've gotta have samurai, it's just hard to fit them. Maybe it's just an extra unit choice, in addition to Ashigaru Musketeer and some form of cavalry.
---Here's an idea - you have three military profession choices: musketman, melee infantry, and cavalry. The melee infantry choice creates Samurai from Veteran Soldiers, and Ashigaru Pikemen from regular colonists. You could even replace the 'Veteran Soldier' with 'Veteran Noble' or 'Noble Soldier' or something, or even have both.
-Korea
--Hwacha replaces Cannon
--Turtle Ship replaces Ship of the Line
-Mongols (if they're there)
--Bonus to Seasoned Scouts
--Bonus to Ranchers (or whatever you call them)
--Keshik replaces Dragoon or Dragoon equivalent
-Khmer or Vietnam or whatever's in Southeast Asia
--Jungle defense and movement bonuses

(I don't know much about Korea or anything south of China, so that's all I've got.)

I think it would be fun to have the option to play with Asians and Europeans together, if not as a main game feature. (Maybe add a bunch more Europeans too.)

holdenhk · Dec 4, 2008

Lubricus said:
The same could be said about Buddhism, in fact. And Confucianism was pretty prevalent among the elite classes in China, sort of like Mithraism was in the late Roman Empire. While Confucianism isn't an ideal choice, it serves the fuction best, IMO.

It was prevalent, but it was NOT a religion. If you want to see a puzzled face, try asking any Chinese about Confucianism as a religion. And the very fact it was prevalent among the ELITE only, makes it pretty tough to spread among simple folks such us the natives. If you want a religion to be spreadable, it must have a popular appeal, e.g. Taoism (which has all characteristics of a religion) .

holdenhk · Dec 4, 2008

T_F said:
-China (Ming, or whatever)
--Chinese Noble is a good idea instead of Elder Statesman, maybe Confucianist Scholar

What about Chinese Mandarin or Bureaucrat? China had no hereditary noble class in the Western meaning (except the imperial family), and most of the imperial posts were filled by mandarins. In more remote newly acquired areas, mandarins (serving as governors) were expected to use their own devices, independent from the capital, to maintain the imperial property and support the imperial army stationed there. Very good training for leaders of future independent nations deciding to split from the motherland...

Lubricus · Dec 4, 2008

(Deleted - double post)

Lubricus · Dec 4, 2008

holdenhk said:
It was prevalent, but it was NOT a religion. If you want to see a puzzled face, try asking any Chinese about Confucianism as a religion. And the very fact it was prevalent among the ELITE only, makes it pretty tough to spread among simple folks such us the natives. If you want a religion to be spreadable, it must have a popular appeal, e.g. Taoism (which has all characteristics of a religion) .

Well, Confusianism HAS spread beyond the elite classes of China, so I can't quite agree with that. Of course, it is not a faith (or philosophy) which advocates missionary work, but the Chinese colonists would want conformity within their colonies, so teaching the natives about Confusianism would make sense to a degree. Besides, there is no way to make this completely lifelike. And that's certainly not the point, either.

holdenhk · Dec 4, 2008

Lubricus said:
Well, Confusianism HAS spread beyond the elite classes of China, so I can't quite agree with that. Of course, it is not a faith (or philosophy) which advocates missionary work, but the Chinese colonists would want conformity within their colonies, so teaching the natives about Confusianism would make sense to a degree. Besides, there is no way to make this completely lifelike. And that's certainly not the point, either.

At least we agree it is not a faith. But it DEFINITELY IS a philosophical system, and if it spread beyond the educated elite, it did so to a very limited extent (like e.g. Darwinism, though Marxism was much more successful in this respect). How can you imagine teaching natives ethics from philosophical point of view, assuming their background in this is none? And doing this without any priests/monks (do you think scholars would go for this job?), worship practices, and references to supernatural beings and afterlife? And with any serious activity in the temple taking place once a year on an early September morning?
My point is that Confucianism is far too complex to be accepted by uneducated masses (eductaion does not guarantee this acceptance either), and at the same time, there are systems/religions in Chinese civilization that are ideally suited for this job.

T_F · Dec 4, 2008

holdenhk said:
What about Chinese Mandarin or Bureaucrat? China had no hereditary noble class in the Western meaning (except the imperial family), and most of the imperial posts were filled by mandarins. In more remote newly acquired areas, mandarins (serving as governors) were expected to use their own devices, independent from the capital, to maintain the imperial property and support the imperial army stationed there. Very good training for leaders of future independent nations deciding to split from the motherland...

That makes more sense, yes.

-About the Confucianism thing, like I said, use Buddhism, it fits better and it's more universal (like Japan, Korea, etc were all Buddhist).

veBear · Dec 4, 2008

What about using different parts of the religions, so the could English have Protestantism together with the Netherlands, Sweden and Denmark (if you could include some extra civs in the game; just download them at the civ col download database, you find many civs in the United Mods mod by liambane), and France, Portugal (include this too) and Spain. Then you could use Zen Buddhism in Japan (Nihon), China (Ming) , Korea (Hanguk) and the Indonesian civ who don't yet have a name. Use Zen as it is the best known word for a part of Buddhism called Chan in China, Seon in Korea and Thien in Vietnam.
So i think that will fit pretty well.

Ok, updated empire list:
- Vijayanagar - Southern Indian nation
- Some Indonesian civ
- Ming - China
- Mughal - Northern Indian Nation
- Hanguk - Korea
- Nihon - Japan

And this is some European nations you could edit:

English to British
Use the french way of writing "New France" instead of the English, and the same counts on Spain, Portugal... and so on
- Here are the new names for the Swedish colonies: "New Sweden" to "Nya Sverige", short version: Sverige
- I leave the danish name's for joeavarage, as i think he can do a good job there (i don't know, but i think he is danish)

Lubricus · Dec 4, 2008

veBear said:
- Some Indonesian civ

Are we talking Malacca, Atjeh or Brunei here?

veBear · Dec 4, 2008

Same thing, i don't care as long as it is from that area (and isn't the Khmer)

Here are an updated UU list. Made a few changes from the old one here thought. Parted the Indians into Vijayanagar and Mughals. Will add UU's for an Indonesian civ soon.

Spoiler :

New Empire list (Updated):

Spoiler :

__________
Updated to much to show the edit list...

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