Ask a Building Trades Professional

According to the Shaw website you linked:

Installation Method
With hard surfaces flooring, you have several different installation options: Nail Down, Staple Down, Glue Down, and Floating. Some Shaw hard surfaces can be installed using more than one of the techniques described below.

NAIL
This installation technique is required for SOLID HARDWOOD construction. Using pneumatic or manual nailers, you or a professional installer will project cleats through the wood, fastening it directly to a suitable subfloor. SOLID construction, like it sounds, is milled from a single 3/4" thick piece of hardwood. Because of its thickness, a solid hardwood floor can be sanded and refinished over several generations of use. One of the characteristics of solid wood flooring is that it expands and contracts with changes in your home's relative humidity. Normally, installers compensate for this movement by leaving an expansion gap between the floor and the wall. Base molding or quarter round is traditionally used to hide the extra space.

This installation technique may also be applicable for ENGINEERED HARDWOOD construction, including EPIC, depending upon the product. ENGINEERED wood is produced with three to five layers of hardwood. Each layer is stacked in a cross-grain configuration and bonded together under heat and pressure. As a result, engineered wood flooring is less likely to be affected by changes in humidity and can be installed at all levels of the home.

STAPLE
This installation technique is an optional installation technique that can be used for both SOLID and ENGINEERED HARDWOODS. Using pneumatic staplers, you or a professional installer will project staples through the wood, fastening it directly to a suitable subfloor. This method is slightly simpler than the nail-down method.

GLUE
This installation technique is an optional technique that that can be used for ENGINEERED HARDWOODS. You or a professional installer will use an acrylic-based or urethane adhesive to adhere your new hardwood to a suitable subfloor. After applying the adhesive with a trowel, you should also use adhesive between the seams of your hardwood floor to complete and stabilize the installation.

This installation technique may also be applicable for dry-back RESILIENT TILES. You or a professional installer will use a special adhesive to adhere your new resilient tiles to a suitable subfloor. Some resilient tiles may be grouted, depending on the design of the product.

Standard RESILIENT SHEET vinyl requires the application of a full-spread adhesive that firmly secures the floor in place onto the subfloor. Expect moisture testing and some preparation of subfloors, according to their condition.

FLOAT
This installation technique is an option on certain ENGINEERED HARDWOODS. Rather than being attached directly to the subfloor with an adhesive, the flooring "floats" over an underlayment placed between the wood and the subfloor. Shaw floating engineered wood floors must be glued together at the tongue-and-groove joint to complete and stabilize the installation. This installation technique allows the floor to expand and contract. Shaw offers a variety of underlayment options for your specific installation.

This installation technique is also applicable for LAMINATE flooring, plank construction in tile or wood designs. This type of "floating" laminate floor is engineered so that the edges of the planks fit together and lock into place without glue or hardware. (Note: Some products require adhesive on the end seams of the first row only.) Since those floors are "floating", proper expansion space must be maintained at all vertical surfaces. Expect moisture testing and some preparation of subfloors, according to their condition.

Shaw also has a floating version of RESILIENT LVT flooring. Our StaTite planks and tiles stick to each other, not the floor. Expect moisture testing and some preparation of subfloors, according to their condition.


And it says it's a hardwood, rather than an engineered wood. It says that
NAIL
This installation technique is required for SOLID HARDWOOD construction
So you need to get the question answered, is this a solid hardwood or an engineered wood?

As to the floor, I think you need to go with the floor leveler. Use the self leveling option if you don't have anyone who can do the other. If you think it's possible that you'll need moisture barriers, see if you can do it with paint instead of an under layment.

For floor height, what's your difference between how high this flooring will be compared to the flooring in adjacent rooms? Also, I'm not sure if I understood you concerning the trim pieces, but if you are putting down flooring, look to remove the base trim from the walls, and put your new flooring all the way up to the walls, not up to the existing trim. And then replace the base trim pieces. That looks much better as a finished job than adding trim to the bottom.
 
but if you are putting down flooring, look to remove the base trim from the walls, and put your new flooring all the way up to the walls, not up to the existing trim. And then replace the base trim pieces. That looks much better as a finished job than adding trim to the bottom.

I know what you mean but just to make sure
re floating floor method the method I mostly use
check the specifications regarding clearance from wall, the gap between wall and cut edge of flooring that the trim covers ( 10mm ALL AROUND THE ROOM should do but check the specs )
if moisture problems occur the floor will bow up or push the walls out and it can be dramatic and teaches a valuable lesson when it happens--- the lesson is always double check the product specifications before hand
 
Mr. Cutlass is right -- real men don't use quarter-round. Remove the old base and trash it. Also cut off the bottoms of door casings and anything other impediment.
The crack I would handle by doing a rough fill with the floor adhesive the day before laying. This will give you an idea of the awful sticky mess you're about to experience. If you screw this up, you can attack with a belt sander or even a plane.
This is an engineered wood product; if it's still boxed, unpack it now to let it acclimate and outgas.
Not necessary but couldn't hurt.
 
Unpacking, getting acclimated and outgassing is always a good idea.

All good advice. Be careful cutting the door frame, try to get it flat to the new flooring going in, but not very tight, just butted. Don't be in a rush on this step particularly. An angle for the frame lifted off the floor on one end, even the tiniest bit, will bug you forever.
 
According to the Shaw website you linked:


And it says it's a hardwood, rather than an engineered wood.
No, it says hardwood rather than carpet, rugs, laminate, resilient, tile, or stone. All of the engineered wood floor say hardwood as the flooring type.

It says that So you need to get the question answered, is this a solid hardwood or an engineered wood?
It is in the Epic Plus series of Engineered hardwood flooring, containing a proprietary center layer they call stabilitex. It appears that it is supposed to be this manufacturers best kind of engineered hardwood flooring, or at least the best for the environment.

As to the floor, I think you need to go with the floor leveler. Use the self leveling option if you don't have anyone who can do the other. If you think it's possible that you'll need moisture barriers, see if you can do it with paint instead of an under layment.

I stopped by Lowes today (while returning some drywall and picking up some lumber, nails, etc for Habitat) and saw some of the other floor leveler options, but the cheapest would still cost $14 and would require more skill to install. The contractor with whom I'm working at Habitat said that he has used the self leveling kind before and found it really easy, but is unsure about the other kind. I'll probably go ahead and get the self leveling kind, but might ask our neighbor if he has experience with floor leveling first.
For floor height, what's your difference between how high this flooring will be compared to the flooring in adjacent rooms?
The new flooring is 3/8 of an inch thick.

The only adjacent interior room of the house is the kitchen, which has linoleum flooring. I haven't measured it relative the underlying slab, but am sure the height is practically negligible. It doubt it is much more than 1/16 of an inch.

The old metal transition piece between the carpet and the linoleum is 3/8th of an inch thick, the same as the thickness of the new flooring. Where the carpet is worn the thinnest it (including the pad below it) is just as thick as the new boards, ignoring any underlayment. Where the carpet is less worn it come up higher than the new flooring would.

There is a screen porch on the other side of the exterior door. The porch has a very thin outdoor carpet over a slab that seems to be perfectly even with that in the den (and equally unlevel). The porch slab ends at the same point (on the other side of the wall) where the den's slab is cracked.

(I suspect it was the porch settling that caused the crack in the den. When the house was first built in 1961, it had a concrete slab extending about 8ft past the exterior wall to form a patio on the whole back side of the house. Around 1980, the former home owners converted the patio to a den and a screen porch. They poured more concrete to extend the slab about 5 ft further to enlarge the den, but for the porch they added a new roof supported by new studs secured at the edge of the old slab. After more than 30 years of carrying weight it was never designed to bear, the porch settling only a quarter inch is not so bad. The concrete past the crack in the den was originally designed to hold its full load, so it did not settle so much.)



When I pulled back the carpet a couple days ago I measured about 7/8th of an inch gap between the slab and the bottom of the door frame on one side and 1 1/4 inch gap on the other. The side of the door where the slab is lower relative the door is about a foot away from the crack.

(I can't find a level here to check, but I believe the door frame is level while the slab below it near the crack is not.)

Also, I'm not sure if I understood you concerning the trim pieces, but if you are putting down flooring, look to remove the base trim from the walls, and put your new flooring all the way up to the walls, not up to the existing trim. And then replace the base trim pieces. That looks much better as a finished job than adding trim to the bottom.

Well, I already bought the quarter rounds. I guess I could return them and buy new trim instead, but it would be a hassle and additional expense. (I'd have to carry them in my dad's van which lacks air conditioning in weather that would likely be over 80 degrees Fahrenheit, and would be paying for it out of my own $15/hr paycheck.)


Most of our house uses the standard style of trim, but this room uses the kind which has no flat front surface but curves all the way from top to bottom with one side thicker than the other. (It was apparently very popular in the 1980s. I just ripped the last of it out of a Habitat rehab house we were demoing today.) The same stuff is used for base board, doors, and window trim. The thicker end faces away from the doors and windows, as is usual, but for the base board is on top rather than the bottom in this case.

This room also already has quarter rounds in the corners where the walls meet, and the adjacent kitchen has quarter rounds where its baseboards or cabinets meet its floor. (Of course, those rounds and baseboards are not in great shape, but could use serious cleaning and preferably repainting if I could match the original trim color. It is also used for the pantry and cabinets, so unmatching trim would be a major change.)


If I replace the den's baseboard trim I think I'd at least have to replace all of the door, threshold, and probably window trim to match. There is a good chance I'd damage the fake wood paneling walls in the process and need to replace them too. I'd likely at least need more touch up paint for the walls.

I'd really rather replace everything in this room, including the walls and the stippled ceiling, but can't afford to let the project scope creep that much.

I know what you mean but just to make sure
re floating floor method the method I mostly use
check the specifications regarding clearance from wall, the gap between wall and cut edge of flooring that the trim covers ( 10mm ALL AROUND THE ROOM should do but check the specs )
if moisture problems occur the floor will bow up or push the walls out and it can be dramatic and teaches a valuable lesson when it happens--- the lesson is always double check the product specifications before hand
Most of the sources I read said to leave 3/8 of an inch, which would be 9.525 mm. (A few recommended only 1/4 inch or as much as 1/2 inch.) I was planning to use the samples of other 3/8 inch hardwood flooring I picked up as spacers.

Since the existing baseboard was installed with the narrow end down, it could not cover even half of the gap I'm supposed to leave. The quarter round could cover plenty though.

Mr. Cutlass is right -- real men don't use quarter-round. Remove the old base and trash it. Also cut off the bottoms of door casings and anything other impediment.
The crack I would handle by doing a rough fill with the floor adhesive the day before laying. This will give you an idea of the awful sticky mess you're about to experience. If you screw this up, you can attack with a belt sander or even a plane.
This is an engineered wood product; if it's still boxed, unpack it now to let it acclimate and outgas.
Not necessary but couldn't hurt.

What floor adhesive do you mean? The leveler? Just the glue meant for the engineered hardwood?

I don't have a belt sander, but might be able to borrow one from habitat. I do own a decent craftsman sheet sander.

A description of the self leveling product online says it is not sandable of paintable though.

Unpacking, getting acclimated and outgassing is always a good idea.

All good advice. Be careful cutting the door frame, try to get it flat to the new flooring going in, but not very tight, just butted. Don't be in a rush on this step particularly. An angle for the frame lifted off the floor on one end, even the tiniest bit, will bug you forever.

I received 8 unopened boxes and the equivalent of 2 1/2 boxes that had been opened. I opened one of the formerly unopened boxes to count and compare the pieces, but left the other 7 packed as they were. They are just in cardboard boxes though without any sort of air tight wrapping, so I wouldn't expect having them opened or closed would matter a lot.


The material has already been lying in the room where I plan to install it for almost two weeks. (Actually, due to the lack of space in a room still filled with furniture, half of the boxes are instead in the adjoining kitchen.) I won't have time to devote to the project until the week after next anyway, so it will have had almost a month to acclimate.




It might be worth noting that the refrigerator is very close to the transition between the kitchen and den, and that the water heater is in a closet on the screen porch not too far from the exterior door. If either of those end up leaking they would be the most likely sources of moisture reaching the new floor.



I really should clean up a lot more, get better lighting, as well as pull the carpet back and remove the tar paper that covers the last few feet of the slab so you can see better, but here are a few pictures of the present state taken with my cell phone.
 

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Go with the self-leveling compound and floating floor option. Glue-down never goes well. See a flooring store for the recommended underlayment.
 
So from all of what's been said, I think the takeaway is, try to carefully remove the base molding. Level the floor, put an underlayment if you can afford one, use the floating installation method, cutting the pieces to between 1/4 and 3/8 inch from the walls, and then installing new base trim pieces. Considering your budget and skill level, I wouldn't recommend trying to get into it too much deeper. The floor thickness question is about how to get a transition piece between that floor and the adjacent room.
 
Wouldn't the self leveling compound form a vapor barrier when dried?
 
It's a form of cement. And cement is porous. And typically slap floors aren't very thick. So moisture can seep through them, if the water table is high enough.
 
Thanks Cutlass.
 
So, I should finally have time to start working on that room beginning Wednesday.

I called the closest Shaw distributor a couple weeks ago and found out that the matching transition strips cost $50 each and only come in 78 inch sections, so I'd have to spend $100 to buy two and then try to splice them together. It would also take at least 10 days to arrive after ordering, which I have not done yet. Their underlayments and glue cost about the same as elsewhere.


I went to back to Home Depot today to see if they had any compatible alternatives. This time I brought a board of the flooring with me.

The lady working in the flooring department today (the man I spoke to a month ago was not there) did not think that the tongue and grooves on my flooring were substantial enough for a floating installation to work well, and opined that I'd be better off gluing it down instead. Obviously this means that the moisture barrier layer couldn't be used.

They had some transition strips for $20 (made of vinyl that looks like wood) and $38 (actual wood), but none were a great match for my flooring and none were longer than 72 inches.

She said that it is almost impossible to splice two transition strips together and have them look good, and recommended I use a single metal transition piece for this job instead. I went ahead and got a 12 ft x 1 1/4 in metal strip for less than $8.

She said that for securing it to concrete I should drill holes in the slab, fill them with wooden dowels, and then nail the strip through the boards into the dowels.

She also recommended putting some silicone caulk under the edge of the strip and around the periphery of the floor to protect from water damage.

She advised caulking the settling crack before using LevelQuick to make the floor even, and said the most important thing is to leave it alone to self level rather than trying to smooth it out manually.

She didn't mention using LevelQuick Primer until I commented that an instructional video I'd watched online recommended it, but when she looked at the bottle and saw that it says it seals pores she said it would probably solve my moisture issue as well as make leveling easier.

When I pointed out that the container of the LevelQuick Primer said that it seals pores in addition to allowing the LevelQuick itself to reach a smoother feather edge, she said that the moisture issue could probably be solved by priming the whole floor instead of just the uneven areas.
 
Is there any way to tell definitively if the carpet guys installed 8lb pad upgrade I paid for vs the standard 6lb pad? Apparently pad bait and switch is a pretty common thing and I would put it past my builder, though if they did it it would be incompetence not malicious cus they're too stupid to screw you on purpose.
 
I am no expert in timber laminate floors but I would be cautious about leaving out a vapour barrier on a solid concrete floor. As Cutlass pointed out, concrete is porous; water will also rise by capillary attraction up the cracks.

Also the original concrete floor may have a damp proof membrane (DPM) inside it with a thin screed over it. If you drill holes into the floor you may provide a route for water to enter. The concrete that was outside will most likely have no DPM.


Regarding carpets that reminds me of a scam I heard about where some “carpet fitters” knock on your door and say they where fitting a carpet in a nearby house and have this large off cut, would you like to buy it as they do not want to take it back to their yard (depot).

Spoiler :
So the househoulder buys the carpet thinking they can use it for a small room. They unroll it and discover it is just the sides and ends of the roll, the middle has been cut out.
The “carpet fitters” sell the middle to someone else and maybe the middle of that to someone else.



The underlay may have some markings on it to indicate the grade. Underlay 6, underlay grade B, trade etc.
 
@ civvver, Probably not. I wouldn't recommend pulling up a corner of the carpet to check, because without the right tools you may not be able to get it back down right after. So you're stuck.




@ Magister, that dowel idea sounds completely dumbass to me. I wouldn't really trust it, or the person who told it to me. Even if the idea itself was workable, you may not understand just how much work, and cost, would be involved in that. But trust me, it's over your head. I wouldn't take that on. Drilling concrete takes specialized tools, and a lot of work. And you'd be doing it many times. Like 100 times or more.

RT recommended against the glue down. I would tend to trust that. He has more experience than I do.

Call the Shaw distributor again, or look to their website, and if they say it can be done floating, go with that. Use the glue they recommend.

The priming and self leveling advice was probably good.

For the transition piece, I'd probably get a plain piece of oak and cut it to fit, then stain it to match.
 
The dowels would only be for securing the metal transition piece, so it would need to be done 16 times, not 100 or more. I have drilled into concrete footers for a deck before for Habitat and could borrow the drill I used for that. I went ahead and got them because they were cheap, but do still share some concerns.

I forgot to pick up the screw nails she said to use, so I guess I'd need to go back anyway and could return stuff.

She also mentioned a specific kind of pneumatic nailgun that would work nailing directly to a slab, but I'm not sure I could borrow one of those.

The previous employee who was recommending a floating installation said that getting the right transition piece was essential for that as it was the only place it would be secured to the floor.

I'll talk about this with people at Habitat today and see if they have any advise before continuing.
The website and distributor definitely list floating installation as an option. The website does recommend a specific glue, but the distributor said it is really no different from the standard tongue and grove glue and that the only reason they usually choose it is because they most use all Shaw products to keep the manufacturer's warranty (which would not apply anyway since I got the flooring for free and would not have it installed professionally.)


I've never stained wood personally (although I have watched it done) and wouldn't know how best to make it match. I guess a mismatch is not the worst thing though.

I'm not sure about how to attach the floating floor to a plain piece of oak either.
 
Standard tongue and groove glue is wood glue afaik. I wouldnt use that for a transition strip. Just clean and prime the concrete and use no more nails extra-super-more-expensive or if you want to be really sure a two part. Araldite or even some epoxy filler if you have some kicking around.

Re wood stain - use an off-cut to find a match. After an unfortunate incident I had to match pine stained by fifteen years in a smokers living room. Tried shop stain and absurdly strong tea (five bags left for an hour). Both were sort of ok, but knotting soloution was 10/10. And way more expensive...

EDIT -

Re how to attach wood to the floating floor. If this is your property so you can try a cheap, easy soloution that should work and you can remedy if there is an issue then try this.

Lay the floor making sure the area under the join is primed. Leave for a few days for everything to settle. Use a two part epoxy wood filler. With a filling knife squidge some under the edge of the floating floor and under where the join will go. Use the epoxy to make a complete bond between the ground, floor and strip. The groove of the tongue and groove should give enough of a key to hold it togeather.

Cheap, easy and very little lost if the expansion of the floor is too great and buggers it up.
 
Staining is fairly easy. But you often don't get a perfect match. Places that sell stain typically have a chart of what each stain color looks like on each wood type. You take in a piece of what you want to match up, and just hold it next to the samples. Wood is a natural product, so there's some variation in what you'll end up with. But you can live with it, or try again. Try the stain on an extra, or not showing, piece of the wood first.
 
I stopped by a Lowe's today, and found they sell Shaw flooring. (This is not the location nearest my house, which is thrice as far distance as the Home Depot, but it was on the way between two sites where I was working today for Habitat.)

I was in a hurry and did not keep looking long enough to find if they sold the exact product I have, but did find an flooring associate who seemed much more knowledgeable than anyone from Home Depot and said he had personally installed Shaw Epic Plus series floors over concrete slabs multiple times.

I originally just stopped by for the screw nails which were sold out yesterday, but asked his advice before leaving.

Lowe's had the exact same kind of metal transition I bought yesterday at the same price (plus a much larger selection of similar items, including the same thing in the size I actually wanted for $1 less), so I asked him about it.

He said that kind of floor metal is meant for carpet and should never be used with hardwood, and then pointed me towards a different sort of metal transition strip (which Hope Depot does not carry) which is better suited for my purposes. It is much more sturdily built. Part of it sits under the flooring and can be glued down or anchored with TapCon screws which the floor itself would completely hide. On the side it comes up to the exact same height as the flooring and has a tongue that fits securely in the groove. It cost $13 for a piece 3 inches longer than I need. (I might not even need to cut it, if I undercut the casing of the threshold instead and make it overlap the linoleum slightly.) I frankly think that this metal piece looks better next to both the wood and the linoleum than they do next to each other, so I see no reason to prefer a wooden strip even if I could find a long enough matching one at a reasonable price.


I believe this transition could be used for a floating floor, but the Lowe's associate agreed with the woman from yesterday that my Shaw product is not well suited for a floating installation (despite the website saying it is possible) and strongly advised gluing it directly to the slab.



I noted that the Lowe's flooring glues were cheaper than those at Home Depot and that if I was returning the floor metal and dowels it might make sense to return the glue too to save $14. The associate convinced me to upgrade to a higher end Bostik glue, which happened to be on sale 40% off today making it only $5 more than the Roberts 1407 I got yesterday. This product is designed as a moisture & vapor barrier too, not just an adhesive like the other. He assured me it would have no problem bonding to the LevelQuick leveling compound or primer. He also convinced me to get some wipes that Bostik makes specifically for cleaning up that glue, which are supposed to work even after it cures.



Bobby (the experienced contractor from Habitat) also thought that a glue down installation would work better for this product and was surprised that the website would even list floating as an option.

When I asked him whether it would be ok for me to use any of their baseboard, he said I could take any leftover cut pieces but none that were still full length. I don't think we have any scraps longer than about 3 feet at the moment, so I should probably just buy some full sized baseboard when I return the glue, floor metal, and dowels.



We didn't finish all the work at Habitat that we had planned to today, so I'll be returning tomorrow. The guys with whom I sometimes carpool can't make it, so I'll be driving myself in my dad's fan and picking up all of the tools they are letting be borrow.
 
, but asked his advice before leaving. <snip>

so I asked him about it. <snip>

.

the quality of advice you get from random sales assistants is very questionable as seen from the conflicting advice you got when you went back and the man was gone and a women was there instead

I would ask your habitat contacts more, after all they use the product you have. Suss out your supervisor Bobby with plenty of experience , chances are he has had this problem himself and solved it or the at least learnt what not to do
A person on low wage at the DYI store is not the way to go
 
I can see and feel it cus there are vents in the floor which have removable grates and I can just pull them up and see the cut carpet sides and pad cus it's not secured there. But I've heared you can't really feel the difference unless it's side by side.
 
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