Ask a Building Trades Professional

[warpus]

You could build a bit of a retaining wall. If the height isn't too great you could use something like

Hey, something like that might actually work. The gravel slope is actually not that bad, and I'm not sure if I'd need a proper retaining wall, at least like the one in the first video.. but something like it I think might do the trick. I really need to get a photo up of that slope.

At first glance, I don't think you'll get that kind of erosion with gravel -- that's what it's designed for -- as a swail for rainwater to drain it away from the structure. The house I'm working on right now uses a french drain with gravel to divert water from the basement. Don't forget the pics.

Hmm yeah somebody else told me that today about the drainage. The thing is that the gravel has a lot of fine sand-like substance throughout.. I think parts of that might wash out after enough rain. The slope isn't that bad, I made a point of looking at it in closer detail when working there earlier today.. so it might not be an issue, but I think I am looking into retaining walls. I want a garden right there beside the shed, in the other back corner of the yard, and something like that might complement it nicely. I could put in some sort of a path beside the retaining wall, which would also run alongside the garden. I can see that working very well

Yeah, this would make a lot more sense with pics.. wouldn't it. The reason I don't have any yet is that.. well, whenever I go out there to work, I don't want to take my fancy travel camera out there with me. I'm in dirty clothes, no cellphone, no wallet, etc. To take photos I need to get out there sometime when I'm not doing work, and it's been so exhausting that the only reason in my head to head there is to return to work. Which I'm enjoying, but it has me really run down right now because there's been so much moving of materials involved. My dad took some pics with his phone yesterday when we were putting the gravel down, I'll ask him to send them to me. Everything gets tarped up after we finish for the day too I guess though, so I would really have to do the photoshoot during work. Maybe next time!

When you lay the patio slabs place some gravel on the slope up to the top of patio slabs. Then when people walk on the gravel they will not locally undermine the slabs.

It's at the side of the shed so I hope people don't walk there anyway! And we sort of did that I guess, we piled a bunch of wheelbarrows' worth of gravel there after we realized we had a lot of gravel and now the slope seems manageable. Having said that, the idea of a retaining wall of some sort has got me thinking.. Me and my dad said we'd put some sort of piece of wood there.. maybe.. didn't really have time to talk about it much, but we thought along those lines during the brainstorming session. Merging this need of needing something to hold the gravel in place with some sort of a neat looking landscaping option might do what I want it to do and look nice.. win-win.. I guess we'll see what I end up doing, we might just be too tired and fed up to do any more work in that part of my house after the shed is done.

I hope you got party photos as well!

Two photos that just got posted to fb, they're just of the 2 bands though

Spoiler :

Opening band - High School Sweetheart



Headliner - Gypsy Ghosts

edit: I totally forgot, we did more work today. I bought 24 2x2 40 pound patio tiles.. I need 30, but they only had 24.. I'll get 6 more later, maybe tomorrow. I dragged them to the end of my backyard in a wheelbarrow, which wasn't nearly as labour intensive as the gravel, but it was hard work nevertheless.. We ended up needing to buy some bags of play sand at Walmart too, because setting down the patio stones on the gravel just wasn't working.. it was very hard to make the patio tones not move, even after the gravel was compacted... There were always little rocks sticking out and what not.. So I convinced my dad to drive with me to Walmart to buy some sand cause.. you can just spread out some sand on top of the gravel and it should in theory make the laying down of the patio stones easier.. which it did!.. We managed to put down 2 rows of patio stones, 6 each.. so 12 patio stones down, 18 left to go. After that we can lay down the shed frame and then finally put up the shed. And then after that the retaining wall maybe, and I somehow have to get rid of all those giant tree branches and start thinking about the garden.

My dad called me this morning and I woke up all hungover and tired... 5-6 hours of sleep, awesome ! Let's move some heavy patio stones around! Yeah, why not drink a whole bunch of beer that my dad brought with him while we work too! ANd then have a whole crapload of wine at my parents' bbq. That's the Polish way I guess, but I wish I had tomorrow off work

 

[ReindeerThistle]

Nice, Warpus. A victory thusfar for the international team of CFC Builders!

Thanks for the pics of the party, but what about the foundation?

 

[warpus]

I'll get a shot in next time we're working on stuff. I've basically been waking up, taking frantic showers and eating a quick breakfasts, and then getting to work, so I haven't been able to really think about anything other than advancing the construction of the foundation. And by the time we're done and it' time to tarp everything up I'm drunk and don't care about much of anything.

It's supposed to rain tomorrow, but the next workday will be a weekday for sure.. and it should only take us a couple more hours to finish the foundation, so I should have time after work and before the work begins to casually stroll around and take a couple shots when the tarp's down

 

[Silurian]

If the top of the gravel is not flat enough lay your 610x 610mm paving slabs on a course sand. But the slabs close together to stop weeds growing. Water will still go down the cracks.

A fine "Play pit sand" may cause problems when it gets wet. After it has been raining walk on the slabs and you may find that they sink at the edges. Play pit sand is good for brushing into any gaps between the slabs (or block paving) after it has been laid to fill up the gaps but not so good underneath. I may not have made myself clear above by course sand I meant Sharp Sand, or a gritty sand, not a layer of sand.


If the fence is timber you need to pull the gravel back from the bottom of the fence if it is touching the timber panels. I assume you are going to let the grass grow up against the patio slab on the house side. You could spread a little bit of soil on the slope and grass seed that.

 

[warpus]

We've only been putting a bit of the sand underneath the patio stones.. I hope it doesn't lead to any problems. Most of that stuff will be under the shed, so it will in theory never get wet. I should have read your posts more closely!.. How much of a problem do you think this might be? There will be 1 foot of the patio stones sticking out in every direction, and those parts are getting wet for sure. What we've been doing with every patio stone we set down though, is wedging a bunch of gravel under the edges with a shovel, for extra support. I guess the patio stones that will be half getting wet are the most important ones - as they will be pressed down by the weight of the shed. The middle ones I don't really care about - they will be covered by a plywood floor anyway. You got me a bit concerned though... How big of a problem could this be?

Why can't the gravel touch the fence? Cause right now it's really touching the fence! House-side the grass is already pretty much growing right up to the patio stones. The slope is on the side, maybe I should throw down some dirt on top of the gravel and plan some grass there? Is that what you mean?

 

[Silurian]

I assume that you have only 10 to 20mm of soft sand but well it is a bit difficult to say without even a photo.

Well it all depends if you walk on the slabs after it has been raining and how much sand washes out and how it settles. Once you have the shed on top of the slabs it will be a pain to replace any of the slabs if they crack.

Random website.

http://www.pavingexpert.com/patio01.htm

http://www.pavingexpert.com/layflag1.htm

The particles of fine sand do not interlock much so do not resist shearing to a great extent and since they weigh less they will be moved by the water more easily. So the slabs are more likely to sink at the edges then crack because they are not uniformly supported.

Wedging gravel under the edges is not a good idea. This will create hard spots under the slabs when the sand settles or if it moves. The slab will then form a "bridge" from the gravel to the other side of the slab. The slab could well then crack when you stand on it.

Water will run under the shed even if the slabs are laid flat but if they stay flat it will probably be drier underneath the shed and so the sand will be drier there.




If the fence is timber the gravel will keep it wet for longer. It will also stop the fence from being periodically painted with preservative. So the bottom of the fence will not last as long.

I understand that the slope is (deleted word) one of the sides not facing the fence. So yes on that side I would put topsoil on the gravel and grass seed it so that it matches the other side where you already have grass.

The sides next to the fence I would just leave as gravel so that it will be harder for weeds to grow. How much of a slope is there, there to the bottom of the fence? and how wide is it from the edge of the paving slabs?

 

[GinandTonic]

Toss up between this thread and the random rants but... I used Pythagoras's theorem in real life today. What to generations of schoolboys is the definition of irrelevant maths was bloody useful in working out how much of the extra wide kitchen worktop I needed for the 900mm corner unit with the diagonal front. 1272.7mm it turns out iirc.

Thanks to my maths teacher I know I can safely order 1.3m not the 1.5m I would have to be on the safe side, saving me in the region of a tenner! It's my anniversary with Mrs Tonic tomorrow and the first round is on Pythagoras and good old Mrs Mac

 

[Silurian]

Just as well it did not come to 1290mm or more as you would not be able to allow for the width of the cuts.

 

[warpus]

Silurian, there is a minimal amount of sand under the stones. What we do is compact the gravel as much as we can, and then put a bit of sand overtop, to make placing the patio stone on top easier. With just the gravel there it was a lot harder to have them settle. They'd move around, etc.. It seems like it'll be impossible for them to crack - they are fairly thick.. 1 and a half inch? Hard to say.. but they seem kinda uncrackable, unless you drop something incredibly heavy on it.

We haven't worked on this project yesterday due to rain, and it's not looking that great today either. It wasn't supposed to rain, but it looks like it might. So I might not be able to get photos posted until tomorrow or the day after that, so that you can take a closer look at what the hell I'm talking about

My boss says that my fence is treated, which renders any "it might get moldy" concerns moot, at least according to him. I'm not sure what I could do about it at this point though, short of digging up all the gravel that touches the fence. What could I do?

 

[Silurian]

Treated timber will not last forever.
Timber that is in contact with the ground will get soaked and dry out more often than timber above ground. So the preservative will wash out faster. The timber is also placed in contact with the fungi that eat it.
Timber fence panels are generally thinner than the posts so they will not last as long once they start rotting.

I assume that since you are spending the money on the shed that you are intending to stay there for a number of years. The remaining life span of the now burried timber could well be halfed. This may not be a problem.

 

[Cutlass]

What kind of fence also matter.
This type of fence, as much as possible you want to keep the panels above ground and not being touched by anything that will hold moisture in or against it. They last pretty well if allowed to dry out properly.



This type of fence, well eventually you'll just have to replace the parts that go into the ground. But depending on the type of wood that may be 10-15 years.

 

[Silurian]

Yes if it is a panel/ close boarded fence as Cutlass photo above then you could have a future problem. You will not have a problem with a post and rail fence unless you fill quite high on one side, but then the risk would be a leaning fence.

 

[peter grimes]

Toss up between this thread and the random rants but... I used Pythagoras's theorem in real life today. What to generations of schoolboys is the definition of irrelevant maths was bloody useful in working out how much of the extra wide kitchen worktop I needed for the 900mm corner unit with the diagonal front. 1272.7mm it turns out iirc.

Thanks to my maths teacher I know I can safely order 1.3m not the 1.5m I would have to be on the safe side, saving me in the region of a tenner! It's my anniversary with Mrs Tonic tomorrow and the first round is on Pythagoras and good old Mrs Mac

We use Old Pythagoras all the time in my field. When installing a set on the stage, the first thing to establish is the "curtain line"

The curtain line represents the plane of the show curtain which keeps the audience from seeing the set before the show starts. From that line, we lay out the Center Line, which runs perpendicular from the Curtain Line to the back wall.

All of the scenery is positioned based on these two lines.

The simplest way to establish your center line is by using 3 tape measures to delineate a 3-4-5 triangle, as our old friend Pythagoras showed. The larger your units, the closer to perpendicular you get. So, on our Broadway stage, we'll use a 21' x 28' x 35' triangle.

But really, we use a laser level that marks off certain degrees.

 

[warpus]

It's the top fence. What are my options then? I'm not exactly sure how much of the fence is covered up with gravel - I think it's just a bit. Would I want to put in some sort of a barrier or something?

 

[Silurian]

Are the slabs still going in 305mm off the fence?
I assume the worst case will be were you have the slope down to the grass.
How high is it here?
At the other corner where the slabs are level with the grass I assume that you have no problem.

At the slope you could have to build a little wall as Cutlass's link on the last page.

At the other corner where you have little to retain you could fix a decking timber to some stakes to form a path edging. Yes it will rot but it will be easier and cheaper to replace than the fence.

Leave a gap big enough that you can get your hand between the wall and the fence to clean out anything that drops in.

 

[Cutlass]

Yeah, the fence would be better off without the gravel up against it. How high is the gravel up the fence? If it's only a foot or so, you don't have to make anything too elaborate.

 

[warpus]

K guys so.. I have pics! and we just finished the foundation, finally.

Turns out that there isn't really any gravel up against the fence.. I thought there was, but when I examined the situation in more detail.. nope.. almost no gravel touching the fence at all. So that won't be an issue or at least it doesn't seem that it will. For some reason I thought there was more gravel around the edges than there actually is

Here's some pics. I hope that they answer all of the above questions:

So first of all, a bird's eye view of the work area taken from my office window, for context. My house is on a hill, so the basement is at the level of the backyard. The patio you see below is at the level of my front door, kitchen, and living room. There is a bit of a tiny slope in some parts of the backyard, the further you go back, but it's almost nonexistent.. The back of the yard was a bit lower than elsewhere though, which is why we needed to fill it in with all that gravel



We got the patio stones fairly even and level! Not perfect, but good enough. The dirt is on there to fill the cracks



Here's the slope I was talking about earlier - to the right of the shed. It's very slight, probably not nearly as steep as you guys imagined it. I am still planning on building some sort of a retaining wall here though. Can I use wood for that? I will need to re-read the suggestions given above.

The garden wil be just to the right of this, so I figure even if it's not really needed, a retaining wall will look nice if I do it right. One thing I'm not sure about is how to make it work with the shed - There will be a one foot gap between the end of the patio stone foundation and the start of the shed. I'm totally not visualizing anything that will work in terms of the retaining wall right now. Would I build something a bit elevated that goes up right against the shed? Initially I pictured something where I could plant things inside of, but now I'm not sure what I can do



This is the back. You can't really tell, but there is an even larger lsope here. We had to use a bunch of the gravel from here to make sure the foundation was even, but even if we hadn't done that, there would have been a slope. Do I put a retaining wall here too? And before anyone asks, that green stuff you seen int he centre of the image is a ripped out plant that somehow ended up there. It's not something that's growing from underneath the gravel, which there is a lot of.



Another shot of the work area. That tree/bush to the left is where the door of the shed is going to go, and I don't think it's going to be in the way, but it's not very big and I can always move it, or get rid of it, if it does become annoying.



We are starting putting down the base of the shed, which is its own little thing in a separate box than the rest of the shed. We'll put that down, hopefully I'll have a patio stone drill from my boss tomorrow too, and we'll start assembling the shed on saturday, provided it doesn't rain.

And then I guess on sunday I better have a freaking amazing father's day gift for my dad

 

[ReindeerThistle]

@Warpus: this really a question for Silurian. Byt I wanted to tell you it looks good so far. I'm not sure wood is good retaining wall material.

Let's see what Silurian thinks; though.

Sent via mobile; apologies for any mistakes.

 

[Cutlass]

For a retaining wall that low wood would work fine. That's just 2 layers of pressure treated 6x6 or railroad ties. And those will last in contact with the ground for 20-30 years. Or you could build with stone. But to be honest, you're slope is so slight you probably don't need it for anything other than appearance. But you could do a block wall, a wood wall, or even a fieldstone wall.

 

[ReindeerThistle]

@Cutlass: of course, RR ties.


Sent via mobile; apologies for any mistakes.