Ask a Mormon, Part 4

[plesniak]

.I am not sure why I would think I should lose my temple recommend, but other than that the answer to all those questions is "that would be adultery and should be treated as such."

If your wife committed adultery you would be very upset with her, maybe even have feelings of anger towards her...don't these types of feelings cause you to answer some or one of the temple recommend questions differently?

Just interested in the opinion as I know of an individual that this exact thing happened to and the husband lost his temple recommend for the reason being that surely he must have feelings of illwill towards his unfaithful and sealed in the temple wife.

Long story short...lifetime member of 30 yrs requests for his records to be removed from the church files.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

Well, not having details of the case there is now way I can comment on it, but I have never heard of someone being excommunicated because their spouse cheated, and can't imagine it happening without a lot of other stuff being involved.

We are supposed to forgive people, though, and if we bear grudges against them then that may affect our ability to enter the temple, in the long term.

 

[Luckymoose]

As I was raised a catholic I always knew the Mormons to be crazy offshoots of a crazy offshoot of the true faith. How can you truly believe the stuff in your book when I don't believe the stuff in mine, and I'm closer to the source?

 

[Thlayli]

Do you find it coincidental that the leaders of the Mormon church had a divine revelation to revoke polygamy just as the United States Congress was cracking down on the practice in the 1890's?

Why do you think that God changed His mind regarding the acceptability of polygamy in the Mormon church?

Why do you think the large migration of Israelites from Eurasia to the Americas did not seed the Americas with the types of animals and plants common in Europe before the Columbian Exchange (like horses, pigs, cows, wheat, grapes, etc,) despite these things being mentioned in the Americas in the Book of Mormon?

Did all of these crops and plants which the Israelites had brought to America spontaneously die out between the end of the Book of Mormon and the arrival of Europeans, who documented no Eurasian domesticated plants and animals upon their arrival?

 

[plesniak]

but I have never heard of someone being excommunicated because their spouse cheated. We are supposed to forgive people, though, and if we bear grudges against them then that may affect our ability to enter the temple, in the long term.

Having your temple recommend pulled and excommunication are quite different things. Although, if you are excommunicated you lose your temple recommend by default, but not vice versa.

The thing that causes me the most concern about the Mormon church is that you also will not get a temple recommend if you do not pay a full tithe on your paycheck. If you don't pay your full tithe you cannot get into the highest place in Mormon heaven. This is too much like paying your way into heaven...you could be perfect in every other regard but you must pay to get in. In the Mormon church if you don't pay a full tithe you cannot get a temple recommend...no temple recommend, means you don't get into the temple, means you will not go to the celestial kingdom and live in exhaultation with your wife and family. Is this incorrect?

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

As I was raised a catholic I always knew the Mormons to be crazy offshoots of a crazy offshoot of the true faith. How can you truly believe the stuff in your book when I don't believe the stuff in mine, and I'm closer to the source?

The idea that Catholicism is "the source', or the actual original Christian Church, is more an article of faith of Catholicism than an actual verifiable historical fact. A lot happened between the beginning of Christianity and the emergence of an organization that can be called "the Catholic Church".

Do you find it coincidental that the leaders of the Mormon church had a divine revelation to revoke polygamy just as the United States Congress was cracking down on the practice in the 1890's?

Not at all, and neither did Wilford Woodruff, the Church president who ordered it stopped, and who said that the crackdown by the federal government was a major factor. He also said that if the Lord hadn't revealed that it was to be stopped, Woodruff would have kept it going regardless of the consequences. But the anti-polygamy crusade WAS a factor.

Why do you think that God changed His mind regarding the acceptability of polygamy in the Mormon church?

As I have said, He didn't change His mind about anything - He authorized it for a time, then said it should be stopped. But all the revelation and doctrine we have on the matter makes it clear that it isn't something that is intended to be practiced at all times.

 

[Thlayli]

As a followup to the questions I added, why is there no archaeological evidence of the settlements depicted in the Book of Mormon? There is ample archaeological data to support the real non-Mormon parts of the Bible.

Do you believe, as Mormon doctrine holds, that God has a wife?

 

[Luckymoose]

The idea that Catholicism is "the source', or the actual original Christian Church, is more an article of faith of Catholicism than an actual verifiable historical fact. A lot happened between the beginning of Christianity and the emergence of an organization that can be called "the Catholic Church".

What about the papacy and this guy known only as SAINT PETER? The rock. You know that guy that Christ was really big on.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

Having your temple recommend pulled and excommunication are quite different things. Although, if you are excommunicated you lose your temple recommend by default, but not vice versa.

Right. It is possible to be a member in otherwise good standing without a temple recommend.

The thing that causes me the most concern about the Mormon church is that you also will not get a temple recommend if you do not pay a full tithe on your paycheck. If you don't pay your full tithe you cannot get into the highest place in Mormon heaven.

Well, for starters, the temples are funded in large part by tithing. And tithes are money that is used for good purposes, either general Church expenses (like temples, or chapels) or other purposes such as education or humanitarian work. Besides, we view it as a principle of faith . . . if you aren't willing to make the sacrifice commanded by the Lord, then why should the temple mean anything to you anyways?

This is too much like paying your way into heaven...you could be perfect in every other regard but you must pay to get in. In the Mormon church if you don't pay a full tithe you cannot get a temple recommend...no temple recommend, means you don't get into the temple, means you will not go to the celestial kingdom and live in exhaultation with your wife and family. Is this incorrect?

Yeah, it is. If you die without having been sealed it doesn't guarantee that you can't be exalted. It's just harder that way is all.

 

[Yui108]

YeaH, didn't virtually all of the early Christians, excepting maybe the Marconites, agree on the importance of Apostolic Succession?

 

[Thlayli]

Why do you think the large migration of Israelites from Eurasia to the Americas did not seed the Americas with the types of animals and plants common in Europe before the Columbian Exchange (like horses, pigs, cows, wheat, grapes, etc,) despite these things being mentioned in the Americas in the Book of Mormon?

Did all of these crops and plants which the Israelites had brought to America spontaneously die out between the end of the Book of Mormon and the arrival of Europeans, who documented no Eurasian domesticated plants and animals upon their arrival?

As a followup to the questions I added, why is there no archaeological evidence of the settlements depicted in the Book of Mormon? There is ample archaeological data to support the real non-Mormon parts of the Bible.

Do you believe, as Mormon doctrine holds, that God has a wife?

Here's a codification of my unanswered questions.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

As a followup to the questions I added, why is there no archaeological evidence of the settlements depicted in the Book of Mormon? There is ample archaeological data to support the real non-Mormon parts of the Bible.

The real question is, how would we determine that the settlements we know existed are or are not the ones described in the BoM? it's not so easy as that. We have plenty of evidence that people lived in the place and time the BoM said people lived, but we don't know what theyc alled themselves or what they believed in great detail.

Do you believe, as Mormon doctrine holds, that God has a wife?

Do I personally? Yeah.

What about the papacy and this guy known only as SAINT PETER? The rock. You know that guy that Christ was really big on.

What about it? The idea that the two are connected - that Peter established the papacy - is, again, not a historical fact but a Catholic belief.

(Not saying it is or isn't true, it just isn't obviously so.)

 

[Luckymoose]

What about it? The idea that the two are connected - that Peter established the papacy - is, again, not a historical fact but a Catholic belief.

(Not saying it is or isn't true, it just isn't obviously so.)

He was historically the bishop of Rome, which is the pope and his succession is well archived.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

YeaH, didn't virtually all of the early Christians, excepting maybe the Marconites, agree on the importance of Apostolic Succession?

Sure, but they weren't all clear on what it meant.

Why do you think the large migration of Israelites from Eurasia to the Americas did not seed the Americas with the types of animals and plants common in Europe before the Columbian Exchange (like horses, pigs, cows, wheat, grapes, etc,) despite these things being mentioned in the Americas in the Book of Mormon?

Did all of these crops and plants which the Israelites had brought to America spontaneously die out between the end of the Book of Mormon and the arrival of Europeans, who documented no Eurasian domesticated plants and animals upon their arrival?

I am pretty sure these questioned have been answered at some point or another over the course of the 4 threads that have been made . . .

But my personal view on the matter (NOT DOCTRINE) is that such crops, animals, etc., didn't actually come over with the Lehites. When they are mentioned in the BoM it is either a) as part of a metaphor (we still use language in metaphors that is irrelevant to our current situation, "gird up your loins" has nothing to do with how we dress now) or b) as a list of accomplishments/possessions that a society has - most of which appear in the parts of the BoM that were written several hundred years after the fact, and could be no more than a literary device. The BoM seeks to teach doctrine more than history.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

He was historically the bishop of Rome, which is the pope and his succession is well archived.

I am pretty sure this discussion came up in "Ask a Theologian", actually. I know that the current popes USE the same title that peter did, but that doesn't automatically make them legitimate successors. In fact, even if A line of succession can be established, doesn't make it legitimate.

Again, though, this is for discussions of LDS, not Catholic doctrine, so I will say no more here (until I am inevitably asked again.)

 

[Thlayli]

So, is God's wife a Goddess? Is she equal to God? Was God's wife extant before time as God was? Was Jesus born of some act of divine copulation? What is the relation between God's wife and Mary? I'd like more details on this.

 

[plesniak]

Yeah, it is. If you die without having been sealed it doesn't guarantee that you can't be exalted. It's just harder that way is all.

well of course,,,if you don't pay the cover to get in, it is much, much harder to get in. But, you could always sneak in the back door. I think demanding money to get into heaven is a little too much of this world and really has nothing to do with heaven at all.

If I started up a Church, I would definetly ask the members of my flock to give money to my "organization"so that they could get into heaven. In fact, I would make it conditional...seems like a good business model for Jesus.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

So, is she a Goddess? Is she equal to God? Was God's wife created before time as God was? I'd like more details on this. Was Jesus born of some act of divine copulation? What is the relation between God's wife and Mary?

There is no reason to think that She isn't equal to God, but for whatever reason we don't have a lot of details about her.

There is also no reason to say that actual intercourse was involved in Jesus' conception (although some Mormons have believed this).

I believe that we can determine that historical Mesoamerican settlements are not those shown in the Book of Mormon, because those settlements in Mesoamerica had no knowledge of European animals or plants, and there's no evidence of wheat, horses, cows, or pigs existing in Mesoamerica before 1492. Furthermore, since these animals flourished in the wild in America after they WERE brought to America following 1492, why would they die out so easily after the events in the Book of Mormon came to a close? (See the wild horses released by the Spanish and domesticated by the Comanche for an example of this.)

See my answer above. The defining characteristics of the BoM peoples weren't what crops they harvested but what they believed.

 

[Luckymoose]

I am pretty sure this discussion came up in "Ask a Theologian", actually. I know that the current popes USE the same title that peter did, but that doesn't automatically make them legitimate successors. In fact, even if A line of succession can be established, doesn't make it legitimate.

Again, though, this is for discussions of LDS, not Catholic doctrine, so I will say no more here (until I am inevitably asked again.)

If my religion isn't legitimate, and yours is an offshoot of it, then that makes yours illegitimate too.

 

[Thlayli]

Do you find it at all coincidental that Joseph Smith participated in many treasure hunts in his early life, and that his birthplace in upstate New York was part of a "burned-over district," notorious for founding new religious sects?

Specifically, do you find it coincidental that a known treasure hunter living in a region where religious sects were often founded just happened to find a treasure, and found a sect?