Wikipedia is actually reasonably reliable, sometimes it is helpful to hear what nonmembers have to say about a religion. Of course, I know what you mean.
Maybe he does, but has a drinking problem?
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Wikipedia is actually reasonably reliable,
And one more question - are you allowed to look at and enjoy the Babe Thread?
It is relaible in non-heated issues, like scientific facts and so on, but not on history or politics...
It isn't perfect, but neither is it useless.
Another question, but this requires some background.
The president of India is a Muslim. He is a first-rate technical genius, and he was a large contributor to our missile and rocket program. His contributions to the country were great, and for this, the party which you consider "Hindu", the BJP, appointed him as the president. He is very well-loved in India. I myself admire his ability, competence, and humanity. Today, the BJP is no longer in power, but his tenure continues.
He made a speech recently, in which he said:
In this, he basically praises the Vedas, the Hindu holy books, and says that they are a repository of information, and that scientific information can be gleaned from them. Sanskrit is basically the classical language of India, and the language of all great Hindu literature. When someone says Sanskrit, it is synonymous with something to do with the Indic religions. Is it, then wrong on his part to praise a language, when such praise may have the effect of leading to Hinduism growing more powerful?
Is he being untrue to Islam by praising the religious books of some other religion, and saying that they are true? Is he being untrue to his faith by tacitly accepting that the Indian religious language as true or valuable?
Ved Vyasa is the poet par excellence of Hindu poetry - all the Puranic literature is supposed to have been his composition, along with the Mahabharat. He praises this poet, and says that he accepts him. The writings attributed to Vyasa are completely in contradiction with Islam. Is it wrong on his part to praise or accept such a poet?
Would it be wrong on his part, as a Muslim, to call Raghavendraswami a divine soul?
What are the stipulations on women wearing hijabs, burqas, etc.?
Are they required or just open to interpretation?
Thanks, it did, I just got back.Salah-Al-Din said:Hello, Brother Elrohir.
May this reach you in peace.
So basically what you're saying is, Ibn Ishaq is a secondary source, isn't especially trustworthy, and is not part of the religious canon at all? My mistake then, I was under the impression that it was considered part of the canon.Ibn Ishaq was an early historian. His book, "Sirah Rasul Allah", is not religious canon, but rather it is a history book.
...
The book, Ibn Ishaq's "Sirah Rasul Allah", is considered a secondary source which simply compiled all the primary sources; Ibn Ishaq was a compiler, not an authenticator. Compilers would compile masses of reports without caring to check their authenticity. This was not negligence on their part, but rather this was the common procedure of the Arabs at the time, to first compile all of the reports and then later to identify which are authentic and which are not by looking at the sources and how reliable they are. There are tertiary sources that look at the secondary sources and streamline them in order to figure out what is true and what is not. For example, Imam Bukhari (ra) compiled many thousands of reports and then only later streamlined them by checking their sources and authenticity. There are therefore, three stages in which narrations are reported:.....
I'm not trying to second-guess you, I'm trying to understand why you say one thing catagorically, (Like the Sirah Rasul Allah not being part of the Islamic canon) when I've read that many Muslims do consider it to be. Here's a slightly different question: Do many Muslims that you have met consider it to be part of the Islamic canon? Not what you believe, what most Muslims you have talked to about it believe. If you don't want to answer, or if you do answer, I'll leave this issue alone as apparently you no longer wish to talk about it.Although I enjoy your courteous nature, unfortunately I do not appreciate you continually second-guessing me. I will not shy away from saying to you what *is* part of our faith, and what is not. For example, I did not deny Banu Qurayza. I simply tell you how it is. So if I say that something is not part of our religion, it would not behoove you to insist that it is. You are trying to say that this story of Asma bint Marwan is part of our religious canon, when it is not. I am not trying to be rude, brother, but I simply wish to avoid constant back-and-forth.
I find it interesting that you ignore my post on the subject by talking about it.Brother Elrohir, I have ignored the parts of your post in relation to current events, in trying to keep with the spirit of this thread which is not about historical polemics but rather about the religion of Islam. You may continually believe the lies told to you that the US wants only good when it bombs other nations, kills their people, devestates their economies, reduces their infrastructure to rubble, and wipes out their dreams and ambitions. To this, I reply to you with:
"And when it is said to them 'Do not make mischief in the land', they say: 'We are but peace-makers.' Of a surety, they are the ones who make mischief..." (Quran, 2:11-12)
I do not deny that I am here, to a certain extent, to debate with you - I was gone over the weekend, after all, at a debate tournamentBrother, I do not think that you are curious. Rather you are here to debate and engage in polemics. Of course, there is no problem in doing that, and I enjoy how you keep it civil.
You'd be surprised by how reliable, on the whole, Wikipedia is. But if I've made a mistake from reading Wikipedia, you are, of course, free to correct me.Herein lies the problem. You get your information about Islam from such sources as Wikipedia. Wikipedia is a big joke. Anyone can edit it. Next to each article, they have a button that says "Edit" and believe it or not, but ANYBODY can edit it and make it say whatever he wants it to.
For example, if you look at some of the pages made about the Sunni-Shia split, you will go there on one day and it will be all pro-Sunni and heavily anti-Shia. The next day you visit it and suddenly it's completely the opposite, and now it's pro-Shia and heavily anti-Sunni.
The same is true for the articles about Islam. One day they are pro-Muslim, but often they are dominated by the Anti-Islam elements, including Christian proponents like yourself. That site, Wikipedia, is a far cry from a reliable source.
No, I don't think that the conflict originally started as a raid among caravans, I'm well aware that Mohammad fled Mecca because of fighting with the leaders of Mecca.Do you even know why Prophet Muhammad (s) was in Medinah? Prophet Muhammad (s) himself was Meccan! And so were all the original Muslims. They all fled for their lives from Mecca due to the persecution at the hands of the Meccan/Quraish pagans. You think--based upon your education from the laughable source of Wikipedia--that the conflict between the Muslims and the Quraish pagans started with a caravan being raided?
Caravans were like modern day merchant ships, they were civilians. If they were armed, it was to protect them from bandits - not because they were going around conquering people. Calling them military contingents seems terribly innacurate to me - if the United States attacked a boat from Palestine because it was am "arms carrier" which had two AK-47's on it for protection, wouldn't you condemn it as an unjust attack on a civilian party? While the motivations for attacking in Mohammad's case and in my hypothetical case would of course be different, I don't see how the classification as a military target is at all different.There was no issue of stealing. The caravans were military contingents, armed to the teeth with soldiers. The Muslims engaged these soldiers in war, and then took all the rightful booty from the caravan. And this was to make good on their losses at the hands of the Quraish pagans, who had stolen the property of the Muslims earlier. The leaders of the caravan were none other than Abu Sufyan and Abu Jahl, both of whom were the leaders of Mecca and the greatest enemies of the Muslims (until the former converted to Islam).
While there certianly could be situations where that is true, it does not work in many. If something doesn't work for the reasons stated why do it?Notice that the Quran makes this commandment so that women will be RECOGNIZED (i.e. as upright women of repute) and not be annoyed (i.e. sexually harassed).
12 The Brahman was his mouth, of both his arms was the Rajanya made.
His thighs became the Vaisya, from his feet the Sudra was produced.
13 The Moon was gendered from his mind, and from his eye the Sun had birth;
Indra and Agni from his mouth were born, and Vayu from his breath.
14 Forth from his navel came mid-air the sky was fashioned from his head
Earth from his feet, and from his car the regions. Thus they formed the worlds.
And just a small clarification.
You quoted two verses from Manu. I went and checked, and one of them is a total fabrication.
Secondly, the Manusmirit is not a text which is binding on Hindus. Today, I have the freedom to write a book of laws and declare it the XYZ smriti. If it is accepted, well and good. But you cannot criticise Hinduism by pointing to my text - because it is only my text. You may criticise me, if you like.
Also, the Manusmriti is a compilation written over nine hundred years, by different people all trying to bend society their way, so it contradicts itself again and again, and is not a reliable source at all.
Another thing is that Hinduism is not really a book-based religion. The only books we are obliged to follow (the Vedas) don't have any prescriptions for the organisation of society or the legal code, they only have spiritual principles which are to be re-interpreted by every generation in every age, to suit the needs of that age.
You referenced a richa from the 90th hymn of the tenth mandala of the RigVeda, called the PurushaSukta (I know the whole thing by heard, in Sanskrit), saying (I quote):
Now if you take this literally, you'll end up in a ridiculous position, because it is part of an allegorical hymn, remembering the sacrifice the primordial consciousness made of itself to create the universe. The hymn continues:
The whole thing is allegorical.
And even if you decide to take it literally, what exactly can you get from it? You get the principle of equality - because what man would be foolish enough to discriminate against a part of his own body? It simply describes that there will always be four types of people in a society, with purposes similar to those of the corresponding body part.
As for that Devadasi comment - Devadasis were originally celibate all their lives. During the middle ages, however, normal royal life was disrupted due to the Muslim invasion. Also, the Muslims obviously could not patronise temples. Now the temples depended in large part on royal patronage for their maintenance. When this supply of funds was cut off, they could no longer afford to support the many Devadasis they supported.
Devadasis were basically women of culture - they knew how to paint, dance, compose poetry, sing, and were refined of behaviour.
Now what happens when any significantly large group of women, who have no other occupation, are left without income - a large number of them turn to prostitution. This is exactly what happened. But even then, they were not common prostitutes, they had a strict code, and they had long-term contracts with only one person.
It would be unthinkable for a temple priest to become a patron to a Devadasi - it just wasn't an option.
So I'd request you do a bit more research before making off-hand comments.
Take care.
So basically what you're saying is, Ibn Ishaq is a secondary source, isn't especially trustworthy, and is not part of the religious canon at all? My mistake then, I was under the impression that it was considered part of the canon.
I'm not trying to second-guess you, I'm trying to understand why you say one thing catagorically, (Like the Sirah Rasul Allah not being part of the Islamic canon) when I've read that many Muslims do consider it to be.
Here's a slightly different question: Do many Muslims that you have met consider it to be part of the Islamic canon? Not what you believe, what most Muslims you have talked to about it believe.
I disagree in regards to my curiosity, I am indeed curious about Islam - the desire for more knowledge and the desire to debate are not mutually exclusive desires; I consider back and forth debate, a sort of Socratic dialogue, to be one of the best forms of learning.![]()
Caravans were like modern day merchant ships, they were civilians. If they were armed, it was to protect them from bandits - not because they were going around conquering people. Calling them military contingents seems terribly innacurate to me .... I don't see how the classification as a military target is at all different.
That comment about TV suggested another question.
IIRC, Allah has said that you should not make images/representations of anything on heaven or Earth. Does that mean that:
a) Sculpture
b) Painting
c) Television (which shows scenes of reality) and
d) Computers which show scenes of reality
are forbidden? Which of these are forbidden and which permissible? Is a TV soap opera which follows all the Islamic rules and in which the protagonist is a true believer, but which still shows people, permitted? Is it permitted for you to have Salah-al-Din as an avatar photo (I guess it must be, given that you're doing it, but I'm just confirming)?
Hello, Brother Aneeshm.
Didn't we agree to let this go?![]()
But I understand that you need to get the last word in, and that's understandable since it's your faith and it is only natural to feel like you must defend it to every last word. That's fine, and I won't respond to your post, because we agreed earlier in the thread to give it a rest and keep the thread more focused. It is, after all, not a thread on Hinduism but rather on Islam. I know that if I respond to your post, you will feel honor-bound to reply and this will continue until the sun rises from the west and the Day of Judgement is here, lol.
However, I totally understand why you felt the need to respond, as I know that I probably would if the roles were reversed. But now that you have the last word, can we now end that discussion?Thanks!
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I'll respond to your other posts shortly, Allah Willing.
Take care, Brother.![]()