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Glad to see you back Incantrix. I was afraid you were scared away or intimidated by the number of questions in here :)

I don't think anyone would claim you were speaking for all muslims. Just speak for yourself. It's all you can do. The fact you're a muslim is just background and doesn't take way the fact you're an individual wit your own interpretations of the Koran.

Anyway, welcome back, hope you stick around ;)
 
People try to make Muslim society sound bad and evil, but yet these people should recognize the good as well. If you see how well the family unit in Muslim (and Eastern) families works, you will be surprised to see how broken the family unit is in most (but not all) Western families (in comparison to the former). In Muslim families, kids don't tell their parents to shut up, slam doors, and rebel like they do in the West. In Muslim families, the parents don't keep praying that their kids turn 18 so that they move out. On the contrary, they hope that their kids continue to live with them. Parents aren't forced to live in nursing homes. Children do not live in single-parent families. When parents say something, the children respect this and obey it, even when the children are grown and adult. It is in the West that people have children outside of marriage and thereby no stable nuclear family exists for the illegitimate children. The wholesome family unit exists in the East, not in the West.
Obviously, these are stereotypes and generalizations. I'm sure that there are families in the West who have excellent family units. However, the general rule of thumb is that the West has more broken families than the East, and the sexual laxity and lewdness in society is one of the main causes of this.

You talk like all religious fundamuntalist, be them Christian, Muslim or Jewish. Half the kids born in France are bastard like you beautifully call them, born in a family where their mom and their dad aren't married just living together, and they are doing fine thank you very much :lol: . There is no proof that the sexual laxity as you call it is the reason why there are more divorces in the West than in the East. The true reason is that in the West, women are "financially" independent and therefore can afford a divorce. In the East, men provide for the whole family and women just can't divorce. Being a divorced women is also not well seen, much like in the West some decades ago actually, and that's the second reason why women just "shut up" and stay with their husbands.
 
I have to admit I feel inferior to you, Salah-Al-Din. You know the Qur'an better than me and you have answers to everything. I am afraid of posting in this thread now, even though I think the parity of a fundamentalist and a secularist would be interesting.

For the past week, I have been reading the Qur'an in my free time. I have lived with more thought and care. You were right to say I was lax about many things. :( I have sworn off drinking and other things. I won't give up music though :)

I never claimed to speak for all Muslims. I cannot accept that I'm unable to speak as a Muslim though. :(

You called the cultural of Afghanistan backwards. Do you believe those men worship Allah too? Do you not think that they view how they practice Islam as the correct interpretation? And do you in turn not believe that they see you as incorrect?

Why are you right and they wrong? Do not quote text to me. The Qur'an says many things and you can take many meanings away from me. Why is your view more correct than theirs?

And for me, why is your view more correct than mine? When I talk to God, I know that I am alright. When you talk to God, I assume you feel the same. Why can I not speak for Allah as I know Him?

You don't have to feel "lower" than Salah Addin Incantrix. He has a very strick reading of the Koran , that doeas not make him a better Muslim that you as being a Jehovah Witness won't make some one a better Christian than being a Catholic. All in all, the way you look to you faith is an exclusive relation between you and Allah, and that is among the reasons why Islam do not have Priests and Popes because no intermediary is supposed to be between the Creator and his Creature.
 
You talked about re-establishing the Califate. How do you think you're going to do it? and how is the Claifate should work? like a democracy (people elect the Calif and indirectly vote the laws) or a theocracy (the "ulema" elect the Calif ad te law is the Sharia)? basically what should prevail in the Califate: The People's Law or Allah's Law?
 
The evidence is obvious: one simply has to look outside in which it is naked women everywhere.

No there isn't. Unless if you go to a nude beach or if you're at a Playgirl party. :rolleyes: Good grief.

And it's humourous that a man's sexiest part of the body is his jawline but for a woman it's her entire body. How just and fair. :rolleyes: Sorry but that doesn't make sense at all.
 
I have to admit I feel inferior to you, Salah-Al-Din. You know the Qur'an better than me and you have answers to everything.

This is what scares me. Why should you feel inferior to him because he takes the Koran literally? I think you as a woman should feel free to think with your own mind and take the Koran and interpret it for what you like. Instead of men like him telling you that you have to wear a hijab and all that. If that's the way to find God, I don't want to find God. I'd rather think for myself thanks.
 
I haven't read the entire thread, so maybe it's been already asked. If it's the case, I apologize.

Mohammed was a human, and the difference between Mohammed and Allah is crystal clear in Islam.
Yet, even though he is human, he is apparently supposed to have no character flaws (at least, Muslims tend to be very defensive when someone points them out).

Does it mean that Mohammed had only done good works during his life, and not a single bad one?
Does it mean that he is better than any human? Or can an ordinary human reach his level of perfection?
Finally, are there Muslim sects who distance themselves from this belief, ie that Mohammed was perfect?

I won't hide that, to me (atheist), the unquestioning respect of Mohammed, a human being, sounds a lot like idolatry. I'm one who believes that no human can possibly be perfect, so putting him on such a pedestal sounds like making him into a deity of sorts.

Edit: I realize my tone may sound harsh. I certainly don't intend to be, as I really appreciate your efforts in this thread, as well as your honesty :)
 
To any Muslim, but specifically to more conservative people like Salah al-Din.

Democracy. Many posters here in CFC often point out the lack of democracy in Islamic societies. My questions to you:

1) In your view, does Islam (or the Islamic world) have a democratic tradition? In what way?

2) What do most Muslims consider as "democratic"? How is the Muslim perspective of "democracy" differs from the Western perspective?

3) Do you support the implementation of a Western-style democracy or a variation of it in Islamic societies? Can it work?
 
As I said before, there is no such thing as a religion that is more likely to be true. The popularity of a religion has nothing to do with how true it is. Whether or not, for example, there is a consensus for what a particular religion's interpretation is right has nothing to do with how true it actually is, because ultimately outside of Theology, religion is not academia. And theology is based on the premises of the religion beforehand, which may be different for each religion.

A fundamentalist can accuse a follower who is less traditional that he is less of a follower, but that means nothing to those who arn't fundamentalist, because the premises of the less traditional follower are different, and most likely justified in a secular context. As well, ultimately the fundamentalist has a major weakness in the fact that divine command theory is philosophically weak.
 
I think i'll step out of the thread or else i might get banned. Because, quite frankly i can't share such view on women as you do salah without starting to be rude.

I'm an atheist, so perhaps you'll understand that my reaction would have been the same towards a christian fundie.

Oh and for the record, i'm a bastard by your definition and i'm ok with that. Marriage is a religious "stamp". Nothing more.


Lastly, whats your thoughts on this :

If we go back to the beginning we shall find that ignorance and fear created the gods; that fancy, enthusiasm, or deceit adorned or disfigured them; that weakness worships them; that credulity preserves them, and that custom, respect and tyranny support them in order to make the blindness of men serve its own interests.
 
I have to admit I feel inferior to you, Salah-Al-Din.

Dear Sister Incantrix,

Please do not say such a thing! Only Allah knows who is more superior and who is inferior. If I made you feel inferior, then this is a flaw in *my* character and it means that I have Khibr (arrogance) which made you feel inferior in turn.

For the past week, I have been reading the Qur'an in my free time. I have lived with more thought and care. You were right to say I was lax about many things. :( I have sworn off drinking and other things. I won't give up music though :)

May Allah reward you for your struggle. Masha-Allah! That is great news to hear. May Allah guide us both to the Straight Path. Allah loves those who strive hard in the Cause of Allah, and who seek to improve themselves. What is better: a person who is flawed but seeks to improve himself, or a person who is of a high level but does not seek to improve himself but rather is going downhill? Allah loves those who improve themselves!

I never claimed to speak for all Muslims. I cannot accept that I'm unable to speak as a Muslim though. :(

Sister, it is only natural that people will take your answer as indicative of the Muslim viewpoint. This only comes with the territory when you label the thread "Ask a Muslim." Furthermore, in Islam, we are not allowed to voice our personal opinion if it conflicts with the Shariah (Islamic Law). Of course, I wouldn't expect a non-Muslim to follow this, and no doubt a non-Muslim would get offended by such a "ban" on "freedom of speech." However, this should not be the case with a Muslim who believes that Allah is the Law Giver and we are but slaves to Him. It is against Islam, for example, to say that alcohol is permissible and good, when Allah has declared the exact opposite.

You called the cultural of Afghanistan backwards. Do you believe those men worship Allah too? Do you not think that they view how they practice Islam as the correct interpretation? And do you in turn not believe that they see you as incorrect?

Why are you right and they wrong? Do not quote text to me. The Qur'an says many things and you can take many meanings away from me. Why is your view more correct than theirs?

And for me, why is your view more correct than mine? When I talk to God, I know that I am alright. When you talk to God, I assume you feel the same. Why can I not speak for Allah as I know Him?

It is true that religious canon can be interpreted in different ways. However, there is a limit to this interpretation. If the Islamic canon clearly and emphatically says one thing, you cannot say that it says the opposite. My problem with "liberal Muslims" on the one hand and "backwards Muslims" on the other is that they claim that they have a different interpretation of the canon, but the truth is that they have never read the canon in the first place to interpret it. Therefore, this is not interpretation; it is rather guess work. And is it a lie against Allah to attribute a thing to Allah that He did not say.

Sister, perhaps I was harsh with you and came off as arrogant. This is my fault and flaw. I should work on my approach more. However, it is the duty of every Muslim to correct people when they speak of the faith but do so in error. This is Wajib (obligatory).

Shaikh Ibn Baaz (رحمه الله) said: “If someone writes something that contradicts the pure Shariah, and distributes that material, or if he propagates that view in the media, it becomes compulsory to refute him and expose the falsehood of what he says…warning people about him if he calls to innovation, shirk, or if he calls people to what Allah has prohibited or to disobedience. Until this day, there are knowledgeable and believing people from the callers to the truth and bearers of the Shariah fulfilling this obligation, sincerely for Allah and for the benefit of His servants, rebuking the wrong, inviting to the truth, warning others against those who propagate falsehood and destructive rhetoric.” (Fataawa Islaamiyyah - Volume 4, Page 279)

All answers should come from the Islamic canon. This is the basis of Islam.

Take care, Sister Incantrix.
 
All answers should come from the Islamic canon. This is the basis of Islam.

Does this mean that Islam is a formally closed system (I use the word closed not as a moral judgement, but as a precise term with a specific meaning)? Is Islam's revelation complete - is there no scope for addition (if not change)? Must the resolution of the problems of all situations be traced back to the principles or the actions of the Quran or Mohammed?
 
Half the kids born in France are bastard like you beautifully call them, born in a family where their mom and their dad aren't married just living together, and they are doing fine thank you very much :lol: .

How is that doing fine? It's a man and woman living together without marriage and they have a child. Do you not see what is wrong with this? Do you not see that the man can just get up and leave? Or the woman can just get up and leave? This is not a stable household nor is it healthy for the child. Any sane person can see that this is not an ideal situation. It is a broken family. The nuclear family unit is important in society. But if you cannot see that, then I guess that we live in different galaxies altogether and we will never reach an understanding.

No there isn't. Unless if you go to a nude beach or if you're at a Playgirl party. :rolleyes: Good grief.

Sister, I use the term "half-nude." Which means that women cover up only half their bodies. Is this not true? The rules of 9 that you learn in medicine says that arms are 18% of the body, legs are another 36%, and head and neck are 18%. Something like that. I think I messed it up, lol. But if you take a look at the things girls wear today, you would come up to a percentage of around 50% of their bodies being uncovered.

In any case, it is simply a saying anyways.

And it's humourous that a man's sexiest part of the body is his jawline but for a woman it's her entire body. How just and fair. :rolleyes: Sorry but that doesn't make sense at all.

In fact, Time Magazine published an article on what attracts people of the opposite sex, and jawline was at the top of the list for men.

Anyways, what is there to be fair about it? Do men have breasts? Do men have curves? Perhaps for you it would become fair if men also had breasts? The woman's body is much more beautiful than a man's. Pretty much every body part of a female is beautiful, whereas the male body is nothing in comparison. Why else do women have clothes that are tight-fitting and revealing? It's because they *have* something to reveal in the first place.

You say it doesn't make sense. Really? Just take a look outside. Next time you go to work, notice how the guys dress and how the girls dress. Notice the huge difference. Girls dress in tight clothes that pull at their bodies in the center...low neck-lines, baby sleeves, and exposing legs. Now compare it to what most men wear: loose formal shirts and loose pants. Tell me: is this the equality you speak of? Compare the butt-tight jeans of girls with the jeans of men. (I know Muslim girls who were forced to buy male jeans because they couldn't find any female jeans that weren't butt tight. I mean, seriously, how do these girls even fit in these jeans? It looks like it is spray painted on!) Is this the equality you speak of? When was the *last* time you saw a male with a low neck line, showing off his cleavage?

I think I've offended a lot of people here, but I think most people are so acclimated to this disparity that they fail to realize it even. But now I want everyone to become observant of this fact, and just make a mental note of the differences in men's clothing and women's clothing. A fair and unbiased assessment would be that women's clothing tends to be way more revealing and tight.
 
Does this mean that Islam is a formally closed system (I use the word closed not as a moral judgement, but as a precise term with a specific meaning)? Is Islam's revelation complete - is there no scope for addition (if not change)? Must the resolution of the problems of all situations be traced back to the principles or the actions of the Quran or Mohammed?

Yes, Islam's revelation (i.e. the canon) is complete and finalized. There can be no further additions. It is considered perfected and beyond change.

However, for new problems that arise, it is permissible to use Ijtihad and Qiyas, which basically means deriving the laws from the Islamic canon by use of analogy. So for example, the Quran commands us to be prepare our steeds of war, but for the modern day we can use analogy and say that this would mean we should prepare our tanks and figher planes.
 
Heh, well Salah you have certainly shown that the differences between religious fundamentalists of any stripe are minimal.

That in its self is a service.

Just to comment on your last post...

You use a lot of self fulfilling prophesies, and the old standard: it's wrong because it is!

There is no a-priori reason why a man and woman cannot be totally committed to, and in love with, each other and a child without ever even considering marriage.

There is no a-priori reason why a man or woman cannot 'get up and leave' regardless of their marital status.

etc.

We indeed will probably never reach agreement on this point, but we could reach an understanding in the absence of fundamentalism such as you represent. Your absolute and unshakable belief that your truth, your perspective, is the only one... That does make it difficult to share this earth, but nonetheless share this earth we must.

Your comments on the differences between dress codes for men and women in western culture are simply cultural mores, and more representative of our own fundamentalist underpinnings than where we are (hopefully) headed as a society.

That is these differences represent the residue of the same sort of sexism that comes through in your posts.

Have you ever seen Michelangelo's David?

The idea that "The woman's body is much more beautiful than a man's" is just more sexist bullfeathers.
 
There is no proof that the sexual laxity as you call it is the reason why there are more divorces in the West than in the East. The true reason is that in the West, women are "financially" independent and therefore can afford a divorce. In the East, men provide for the whole family and women just can't divorce. Being a divorced women is also not well seen, much like in the West some decades ago actually, and that's the second reason why women just "shut up" and stay with their husbands.

You could use this excuse that this is the reason that there are more divorces in the West. Maybe this is one minor contribution to the problem, but it is unlikely. Women in Muslim countries always have the option of divorcing their husbands and moving back with their parents. Unlike the West in which parents abandon their children after a certain age, parents in Eastern countries take in their kids no matter what the age. Therefore, this excuse and explanation for why the West has so many divorces does not fit.
 
You talked about re-establishing the Califate. How do you think you're going to do it?

I am not going to do it myself, hehe. :p

I think the first stage is spreading awareness and implanting the idea (of Caliphate) in the hearts and minds of Muslims everywhere. When enough people believe in it, I think it is only bound to happen as a result.

and how is the Claifate should work? like a democracy (people elect the Calif and indirectly vote the laws) or a theocracy (the "ulema" elect the Calif ad te law is the Sharia)? basically what should prevail in the Califate: The People's Law or Allah's Law?

These are actually two questions.

The first question is: how is a Caliph chosen?

The second question is: how are laws passed, based on popular demand or upon Holy Law?

As for the first question, there is no hard and fast rule for this, and the methodology for choosing the Caliphate has been left open based upon Urf (cultural norms). The Arabs of that time had a system of Shurah (mutual consultation). It was not altogether different than democracy, albeit a primitive form of it. The people would nominate someone. Nobody could become the Caliph if he did not get Bayat (oath of allegiance) from the people.

However, to answer your question, there is no Divine Law that dictates how a leader is chosen, and it is therefore permissible for us to figure out the best way to do this. Maybe some people would say that a democratic election would be a good way to do this. I myself am not qualified to give an opinion on what this procedure would be since I don't really know much about the political sciences, jurisprudence, government, etc.

Having said that, one of the major downfalls of Muslim Empires in the past was their failure in creating a working system of Caliph nomination and succession. In fact, the successor to almost every Muslim leader was civil war. This has been a major downfall of Muslims, and I think that we as a people should work out a system of succession to prevent such civil war and strife...I believe that we should draw on the example of the West in this matter, because they are very good at creating stable governments that pass down power in a fairly controlled way. No problem with learning from the West. :)

As for your second question: all laws would have to be in accordance to Allah's Divine Laws. Even if 99% of the people demanded that a law be enacted, it could not be so if it violated one of Allah's Divine Laws. However, if the people wanted to enact a law that was not in contradiction to the Divine Laws, then yes such a law should be implemented.

Take care, Sister.
 
I haven't read the entire thread, so maybe it's been already asked. If it's the case, I apologize.

Mohammed was a human, and the difference between Mohammed and Allah is crystal clear in Islam.
Yet, even though he is human, he is apparently supposed to have no character flaws (at least, Muslims tend to be very defensive when someone points them out).

Does it mean that Mohammed had only done good works during his life, and not a single bad one?
Does it mean that he is better than any human? Or can an ordinary human reach his level of perfection?
Finally, are there Muslim sects who distance themselves from this belief, ie that Mohammed was perfect?

I won't hide that, to me (atheist), the unquestioning respect of Mohammed, a human being, sounds a lot like idolatry. I'm one who believes that no human can possibly be perfect, so putting him on such a pedestal sounds like making him into a deity of sorts.

Edit: I realize my tone may sound harsh. I certainly don't intend to be, as I really appreciate your efforts in this thread, as well as your honesty :)

The idea that Prophet Muhammad (s) was perfect is a Shia belief only. Unfortunately, some Sunnis have been affected by the Shia propaganda on this topic, but the true position of the Sunnis is that nobody but Allah is perfect. I wrote this article for another forum, and I shall post it here:

No Prophet is Perfect

Muslims believe that only the Creator Allah Almighty is perfect. On the other hand, creation cannot possibly be perfect as this is an attribute only Allah Almighty can posses. Humans, who were created simply out of dust, are an excellent example of imperfection. All humans commit mistakes and sin.

As Perfection is an attribute of Allah, Imperfection then is an attribute of human beings. This is why the imperfect human beings bow down to the perfect Creator. Indeed, to ascribe an attribute of Allah to a human being is an act of Shirk; it is ascribing partners to Allah Almighty. If we believed that a human being was perfect/omniscient/omnipotent, then we are guilty of Major Shirk (associating partners with Allah, or indirect polytheism).

From the very beginning of time, Prophets have taught humanity this same message. Unfortunately, people have always been led astray by Shaytan who tricks them into commiting Shirk. The prime example of this are the Christians, who eventually started giving Allah’s Attributes to Prophet Jesus (عليه السلام). Prophet Jesus (عليه السلام) himself would preach Tawheed (oneness of God), and yet his astray “followers” started attributing Prophet Jesus (عليه السلام) to God! The Quran clearly says what the fate of such people will be: on the Day of Judgement, Prophet Jesus (عليه السلام) himself will testify against these so-called “followers.”

It should be noted that the story of Prophet Jesus (عليه السلام) is mentioned in the Quran not only for the Christians but in fact more for the Muslims. After all, a Christian would reject the Quran, so the primary audience of the Quran is the Muslims. The example of the Christians was put forth in the Quran as a reminder to Muslims so that Muslims don’t fall into the same trap.

Only Allah Almighty is the One incapable of forgetting or making a mistake. All human beings can make mistakes. This is the definition of being a human being.

The Quran

We will now proceed to prove without a shadow of doubt that Prophets are not infallible according to the Quran. We will show how the Quran refutes all three points and how Prophets can sin, do make mistakes, and do forget.

The most obvious example is that of Prophet Adam (عليه السلام). We cannot fathom how the Shia factor in the story of Adam (عليه السلام). Allah Almighty forbade Prophet Adam (عليه السلام) from going near a tree in Paradise. But Shaytan convinced Prophet Adam (عليه السلام) to sin and violate the Law of Allah.

In Verse 20: 121-122 in the Quran, Allah Almighty says:

Thus did Adam disobey his Lord, so he went astray.
Then his Lord chose him, and turned to him with forgiveness, and gave him guidance.
(Quran, 20:121-122)

Prophet Musa (عليه السلام) also committed a mistake of killing an Egyptian man. In Verse 28:16 of the Quran, Allah Almighty says:

He [Musa] said: ‘My Lord! Verily, I have wronged myself, so forgive me.’ Then He [Allah] forgave him. Verily, He is the Oft-Forgiving, the Most Merciful. (Quran, 28:16)

Prophet Dawood (عليه السلام) commited the sin of passing judgement before hearing the case of the second disputant. In Verse 38:23-24 of the Quran, Allah Almighty says:

…and he [Dawood] sought forgiveness of his Lord, and he fell down prostrate and turned (to Allah) in repentance.
So We forgave him that, and verily, for him is a near access to Us, and a good place of (final) return
(Quran, 8:23-24)

And our Prophet Muhammad (صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم) was rebuked by his Lord for several things that are mentioned in the Quran, such as the following in verse 66:1:

O Prophet! Why do you forbid (for yourself) that which Allah has allowed to you, seeking to please your wives? And Allaah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. (Quran, 66:1)

In another verse in the Quran, the Prophet (صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم) is rebuked for not listening to an old man:

(The Prophet) frowned and turned away, because the blind man came to him. But didn’t you know that perhaps he might grow (in spiritual understanding)? Or that he might have received an important lesson, and the teaching might have profited him. As to the one who thought he was self-sufficient, you attended to him - though it was not your fault that he did not grow (in spiritual understanding). But as to the one who came to you earnestly seeking and with reverence, of him you were unmindful. It should not be so! (Quran, 80:1-11)

In another instance, the Prophet (صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم) decided to free prisoners in the Battle of Badr, but Allah wanted him to first seek justice by punishing the enemies of Islam. And so it was that Allah corrected the Prophet (صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم) in the Quran and demanded that the war criminals be brought to justice. This is narrated in Verse 8:67.

There should be no doubt left in the minds of anyone that the Prophets cannot only make mistakes but they can also commit minor sins. No human being is above this, and to believe such a thing is to commit Shirk. The Prophet (صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم) will reject those who dare elevate his status to that which is not befitting of a man.

The Prophet (صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم) repeatedly told his followers that he is just a man and no more. Indeed, the Prophet’s modesty is a shining example to us all. The Shia have commited a grave sin by associating the Attributes of Allah to human beings.

The Prophets were the best of the human beings. There is no doubt about this. We should respect all the Prophets and they are leaders to humanity. But we should not exalt them to the status of God, or else we will be falling in to the same trap as the Christians fell into.

Allah Almighty says in the Quran: “O People of the Scripture, do not exceed limits in your religion beyond the truth and do not follow the inclinations of a people who had gone astray before and misled many and have strayed from the soundness of the way.” (Quran, 5:77)

Shaikh Ibn Tamiyyah

Shaikh Ibn Tamiyyah said in Majmoo’ al-Fataawa:

"The view that the Prophets were protected from major sins (kabaa’ir) but not from minor sins (saghaa’ir) is the view of the majority of the scholars of Islam… It is also the view of the majority of the scholars of tafseer and hadeeth, and of the fuqahaa’. Nothing was reported from any of the Salaf, Imams, Sahabah, Tabi’een or the successive generation that does not agree with this view.

"What has been narrated from the majority of scholars is that they (the Prophets) are not infallible with regard to minor sins, but they are not left to persist therein. They do not say that this does not happen under any circumstances. The first group from whom it was narrated that they are infallible in all cases, and who say that the most, are the Raafidis (Shi’ah), who say that they are infallible and protected even against forgetfulness and misunderstanding…"


Prophets as Role Models

A typical Shia response to the idea that Prophets can commit minor sins is the following:

Allah has commanded us to follow the Messengers and take them as our example. The command to follow them is taken as meaning that everything they did is an example for us to follow, and that every action and belief of theirs is an act of worship. If we suggest that that the Messenger committed a sin, there will be a dilemma, because that implies that we are commanded to imitate this sin which was committed by the Prophet because we are commanded to follow his example, but at the same time we should no agree with it or do it, because it is a sin.

This argument would only be valid and appropriate if the sin is hidden and not obvious in such a way that it could be confused with acts of obedience. But Allah has explained to His Messengers where they went wrong and enabled them to repent without delay. Thus, there is no confusion on the matter, and the Muslims know what is right and what is wrong. Shaikh Muhammed Al-Munajjid responded to this Shia argument by saying:

"This argument is valid and is appropriate if the sin is hidden and not obvious in such a way that it could be confused with acts of obedience. But Allah has explained to His Messengers where they went wrong and enabled them to repent without delay."

In fact, the believers can imitate the Prophets in the manner in which they repent and seek Allah’s Help. For example, the example of Prophet Adam (عليه السلام) touching the forbidden tree serves as a good reminder for all Muslims; we know from this story that we should obey Allah and that when we disobey Him, then we should repent immediately and sincerely like Adam (عليه السلام) did.

Although the Prophets are not infallible in totality, they are infallible in the specific aspect of conveying the Message of Islam. For example, the Prophet (صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم) would never make a mistake when he was reciting the Quran. Angel Jibrael (عليه السلام) instructed the Prophet (صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم) to “read” to which the Prophet (صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم) responded that he could not read. But Allah allowed him to read and recite when it came to the Quran because it was Allah Himself who would ensure that the Prophet (صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم) would convey it correctly. The Prophet (صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم) was at first worried that he would forget the words of Allah, but Allah reassured Him that Allah has taken the responsibility of ensuring that the Prophet (صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم) conveys it with 100% accuracy.

Allah says in the Quran: “Your companion (Muhammad) has neither gone astray nor has erred. Nor does he speak of (his own) desire. It is only a Revelation revealed. He has been taught (this Quran) by one mighty in power.” (Quran, 53:1-5)

The Ummah is agreed that the Messengers do not make mistakes when it comes to conveying the message. They did not forget anything that Allah revealed to them, except for things that were abrogated. And Allah guaranteed His Messenger that he would remember it and would not forget it, except for that which Allah wanted him to forget, and He guaranteed to remember the whole Quran in his heart. Allah declared: “We shall make you to recite (the Quran), so you (O Muhammad) shall not forget (it).” (Quran, 87:7)

So the fact that the Prophet (صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم) is not infallible in totality does not mean that the Message will be compromised at all. The reason for this is clearly stated in the Quran, namely that Allah has taken the responsibility: “It is for Us to collect it and to give you (O Muhammad) the ability to recite it (the Quran).” (Quran, 75:17)

Hence, the Prophet (صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم) could not make mistakes when it came to religion namely because Allah ensured this. On the other hand, it is not impossible for the Prophet (صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم) to make minor mistakes on issues that have no bearing on his delivering the message. For example, he could make minor mistakes when it came to non-religious issues, such as agriculture, carpentry, and other such secular matters. Making minor mistakes in such matters does not put into question the Prophet’s ability to convey the Message.

Shaikh Muhammed Al-Munajjid declared:

"With regard to worldly matters…with regard to agriculture, medicine, carpentry, etc., he was like all other people. Allah did not tell us that he was sent to us as a businessman or a farmer or a carpenter or a doctor. His mistakes in these fields are quite natural and do not impact on his Message at all."


In one of the Prophetic Sayings, we read:

The Prophet (صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم) came to Madinah, and they were pollinating the date-palms. He said, “What are you doing?” They said, “We always used to pollinate them.” He said, “Perhaps if you do not do that, it will be better.” So they did not do it, and the harvest was lacking. They mentioned that to him, and he said, “I am only a human being like you. If I tell you to do something with regard to religion, then follow it, but if I tell you to do something based on my own opinion, I am only a human being.” (narrated by Muslim, 2361).

We note that the Messenger (صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم) made a mistake in this worldly matter, because he was like all other human beings. But this does not take away from his greatness as a Prophet. A Prophet is not expected to know extraneous things such as how to fix an automobile radiator, solve quadratic equations, or other such matters which do not pertain to his Prophethood nor do they aid him in his mission to spread the religion of Islam to the corners of the globe.

The Standing Committee

The Standing Committee, one of the most respected scholarly bodies of Islam, was asked:

Do the Prophets and Messengers make mistakes?

The Standing Committee replied:

"Yes, they make mistakes but Allah does not let them persist in their mistakes, rather he points out their mistakes to them as a mercy to them and their nations, and He forgives them for their mistakes, and accepts their repentance by His Grace and Mercy, for Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful, as will be clear to anyone who studies the verses of the Quran which speak of that."

(Source: Fataawa al-Lajnah al-Daa’imah, 3/194)

Greatness of the Prophets

There is absolutely no doubt that the Prophets are the best of human beings. It does not take away from their character at all to say that they are not perfect, or to say that they can commit minor mistakes and such. In fact, this only increases them in their greatness. First off, the Prophets do not commit major sins, but only minor ones. And Allah allows them to commit these sins so that He increases them in their faith when they ask for repentance. When a person sins, and then repents, Allah increases him in status for this.

Yes, sins are a shortcoming, but only if they are not accompanied by repentance, for repentance brings forgiveness of sin, and does not contradict goodness or bring blame upon a person. Rather, in many cases a person may be better after repenting than he was before he fell into sin. It is well known that no Prophet committed sin except that he hastened to repent and seek forgiveness. The Prophets did not persist in sin or delay repentance, for Allah protected them from that, and after repenting they became better people than they were before.

Conclusion

The debate over the issue of the Prophets’ infallibility is completely unnecessary, since the Quran itself mentions several instances in which Allah is reprimanding the Prophets for making a mistake. We have cited some of these verses in this article. These verses should be enough to convince the unbiased viewer that the Shia idea that their Imams are infallible is an exaggeration and blasphemous innovation that runs contrary to the Quran.

Simple logic dictates that it makes little sense for the Prophets to be asking for forgiveness from Allah unless they were capable of comitting mistakes and minor sins in the first place; otherwise, why would there even be a need to ask for forgiveness? If a person does not commit sins, then there is no need to ask for forgiveness, and yet we find that the Prophets repeatedly asked for forgiveness. This can only mean that they did commit mistakes and minor sins, although they hastened for repentance.
 
Some more questions, Salah Al-Din :)
Edit: and thanks for your answers :goodjob:

First, a theological one: you say that a part of the message in the Qur'an exists, so that humans can understand the divine message: for example, the Qur'an strongly frowns upon slavery but doesn't make it Haram because slavery was so prevalent at the time. Similarly, some promises of Islam exist because of our weak consciousness (the material promises in paradise, for example)
At the same time, Islam is the definitive word of Allah: the previous prophets all brought the word of Allah progressively as human conciousness progressed; with Islam, human consciousness has become sufficient to hear the definitive Word.
Since there are elements in Islam that are explainable by history, does it mean the Word of Allah will appear in a purer form at some time, when our human consciousness will be better (thanks to the efforts of Islam)? Or does it mean we humans can't get closer to the divine than what we are now, i.e that we are bound to have down-to-earth concerns? Or something else entirely? I'm sure this debate is a typical one among scholars.

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Now, less theological ones, and more down-to-earth questions. The following questions are about you. I'd like you to give your personal answer, even if it has nothing to do with religion - but upon reading your posts (which are excellent and informative), I imagine your beliefs guide you in this aspect:

- First off, would you go to a swimming pool on "men's day", i.e when no woman is around to see your nearly-naked body. Similarly, would you go to a men's only public bath (something common in Muslim countries)?

- If I understand correctly, you'd ideally like to live in a political regime under the rule of God. However, such thing will only happen when God wants, not man. In the meantime, which kind of political regime do you prefer?

- I don't really understand why you turn off music in Civ. You quoted that music is Haram, but there are two different reasons why I don't see it applying to Civ:
1. Music is Haram because it creates lewdness. There's no risk of that when playing Civ ;)
2. Music is Haram because it derives you from the worship of Allah - but couldn't the same be said of any entertainment, including those that weren't invented at the time (i.e playing a computer game)?
 
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