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In a society with no state (which is what communism is from my understanding) how will crime be solved? If there's no police officers, can't some guy just go in my house and kill me, and he doesn't get punished?
 
Indeed I should have placed exception markers for financial industries. But would the collapse of contemporary financial capitalism lead to socialism or to gilded age capitalism? Or something else entirely?

Whether gilded age capitalism can make a return is a very interesting question.

Financial capitalism was a "necessity" for an accumulation system that, at the same time it made accumulation the sole driver of economic activity, required mass production and consumption or products and services. For the mass of the people to be able to consume while some others kept accumulating ever more in the pursuit of profit was only possible by making the accumulation a financial process and lending that accumulated money to the consumers. It's an unstable system but it can take quite a while to run its course.

How is "gilded capitalism" different? In the historical US version mass consumption was already important, but infrastructure production, war production, luxury goods, and especially services, those were also important. But this is not a dig difference. So what else was different? There were sources of wealth to be had other than squeezing a public of consumers for all they had! The US had the West to acquire, the robber barons made their fortunes from its exploration (railroads, and its materials, and the new commerce) and for decades there was still more than enough left for the common people involved in that massive conquest and colonization. What was being accumulated at the top, from the bottom, was being "replenished" from that settlement process.

I won't make the same argument regarding european capitalism of that age. Some have done it, arguing that colonialism was essential to early capitalism. But european late 19th century capitalism was different from the "gilded age" capitalism of the US. There wasn't one european capitalism, there were "national capitalisms", or capitalisms using different methods of (temporary) stabilization.
The UK's was perhaps the most similar to the (Eastern Coast) US capitalism: finance and "capital export" played a role in supporting accumulation but so did the industrial production and the Empire of the UK. Its early key markets were Europe and South America before they had to turn more to the Empire, as other european countries got their own "national capitalisms" going in competition.
France's capitalism was more financial than the UK's, but accomplished with the state's direction. It took off after the creation of the Credit Mobilier by Napoleon III in the 1850s, and had a first crisis when it piled uo too many credits in the 1870s. So, "financial capitalism" even back then.
Belgium had the Societé Generale de Belgique and its history can nearly be said to be the history of the country. Early state capitalism?
Italy was a mess impossible to broadly characterise, but no surprise there as it was a new country. The ailing Ottoman Empire, some few technically backwards european countries, and some few other independent states around the world had a role of consumers, net importers both of goods and capital.
I don't know enough about Austria or Prussia, Germany or Russia, to comment on those.

I guess that want I mean to say is: gilded capitalism was not just a system that existed in the past, but one that existed in a few specific countries in the past. It's only sustainable if you have either:
- external markets for the production, such that people outside the system supply the (monetary) wealth that supports continued accumulation. Examples were the second French Empire, or recent Korea and Japan until the 80s.
- internal sources of new wealth outside the capitalist system, such as new land or new valuable natural resources. Some oil rich states, for example, practice a form of "gilded capitalism", you can see it in the palaces of old pre-soviet Baku or in some recent arab sheikdoms now busy embracing "modern economy".

"Gilded capitalism" can exist now, arguably does exist in some countries, and it can exist in the future also. But not as a global system. It must have a boundary, not be completely closed but restricted, and it must have a source of wealth (consumers) from outside that boundary so as to sustain accumulation.
In a really closed system such as the whole world the profits must all be recirculated to keep the system going, and that means getting them spent by consumers. Either consumers (the mass of the people, workers and non-workers) get as much in income as they consume, which restricts profit accumulation (there is little surplus retained to accumulate to business owners, as wages and taxation must support consumption), or profits must be supported with loans to consumers. Ever-increasing loans. That is financial capitalism. And because a "globalized" world is a single system, financial capitalism is the only form of capitalism we can have under "globalization", with totally open borders for trade and capital. The worldwide financialization of capitalism was the inevitable result of trying to create a "globalized" capitalism.

When I say inevitable, well, in theory there was an alternative: the "ownership society": if many people were owners of business ("investors" in stocks, it is usually assumed) then profits would be recirculated as income to consumers through that mechanism. The problem is that this ownership, in practice, always gets terribly concentrated because having wealth begets additional wealth faster: those with less wealth spend a greater fraction on consumption, the more wealthy can invest more in extending their ownership and this increasing their share of the overall profits. The accumulation and concentration process cannot be escaped, under capitals logic, even if everybody starts with exactly the same amount of wealth. The ownership society was a lie.
 
Can you be "Rich" in a socialist society? What would be the upper bounds to wealth in a socialist society? Who decides how it is distributed and why? Does socialism reject property in the same way communism does?
 
Can you be "Rich" in a socialist society? What would be the upper bounds to wealth in a socialist society? Who decides how it is distributed and why? Does socialism reject property in the same way communism does?

Depends on what you are calling wealth. The central tenet of socialism regarding capital is that it should belong to those who work with it. Thus I don't see how anyone could be "wealthy" as in be the sole owner of a big company employing a number of other people. It probably would apply to land too, though that is a far more treacherous subject: how much land one can work varies; and not all land is used for productive purposes anyway, far from it.

But you could be wealthy as in owning other kinds of valuable property. What kinds, and how it would be valued, is not a subject that socialists agree on. You have socialists who stick to the old labour theory of value and you have socialists who adhere to market economics and would instead see the value of a good be estimated by some market operation, for example. Socialists usually (I guess some utopic branches might) do not claim that all property must be shared equally. Such a thing is prima facie impossible: some goods are scarce and/or cannot be split (works of art, for example), or are valued differently by different people.

You might also have socialists arguing for the abolition of all kinds of private property, but I believe that is more of an anarchist thing.
 
Geoffrey Gorer, an English anthropologist and author (1905–1985), wrote one of the earliest books on Sade entitled The Revolutionary Ideas of the Marquis de Sade in 1935. He pointed out that Sade was in complete opposition to contemporary philosophers for both his "complete and continual denial of the right to property," and for viewing the struggle in late 18th century French society as being not between "the Crown, the bourgeoisie, the aristocracy or the clergy, or sectional interests of any of these against one another", but rather all of these "more or less united against the proletariat." By holding these views, he cut himself off entirely from the revolutionary thinkers of his time to join those of the mid-nineteenth century. Thus, Gorer argued, "he can with some justice be called the first reasoned socialist."[13]

What do you make of that?
 
Cheezy the Wiz
RedRalphWiggum
civver 764
Traitorfish
innonimatu
Bast
Richard Cribb
FredLC

To the above I ask this:
What are your qualifications for answering questions about communism and socialism?

Marx says that a communist is a leader in the trade union movement always pointing to the international aspect of the situation. Lenin says that a communist is a Jacobin to which class consciousness has been added and Fidel says only a revolutionary fighter can call himself a communist. I am all three.

May I answer some of these questions?
 
Cheezy the Wiz

What are your qualifications for answering questions about communism and socialism?

I'm a five year member of the Communist Party of the United States. I've actively worked to expand membership, form new cells, and organize heretofore unorganized labor. Educate, agitate, and organize.

I also provided a brief biography in my OP:

4. Who are you anyway who think that you can teach me anything about this?
- I am a 24 25 year old American man and member of the working class. My childhood was lower middle class, enough for my parents to help me pay for two years at a state university to compliment the two years I did at the local community college, which together yielded me a BS in History. With any luck my Phd. studies will begin this coming fall. My specialization was in Middle Eastern History, but a passion for Russian history has led me to greater knowledge of it than of my specialty. I am also a member of the Communist Party of the United States, a fortunate match for me, since my beliefs and their ideals are nearly one and the same. I have also participated in events with the International Socialist Organization, from time to time. And, as many of you on this board surely know, I have some knowledge about the topics at hand.

Marx says that a communist is a leader in the trade union movement always pointing to the international aspect of the situation. Lenin says that a communist is a Jacobin to which class consciousness has been added and Fidel says only a revolutionary fighter can call himself a communist. I am all three.

May I answer some of these questions?

I would take issue with the word "trade" union, as, since Marx's time, we have discovered that labor unions are far more effective than trade unions as furthering the working class cause, but otherwise you seem UnGentlemanly enough, so I don't see why we couldn't add you to our team. :hatsoff:

Any dissenters are free to speak up.
 
Thank you. As I agreed to when I joined this thread, I will not engage in competitive polemic. Congratulations on 5 years in CP. I am for anything that promotes international solidarity and I am glad CP is expanding. I have spent 21 years in this biz -- and, yes, "trade union" is a dated term, since I organize workers who have no protection under labor laws, but it was what Marx said.

I am glad to offer my expertise.
 
GhostWriter16 said:
Can you be "Rich" in a socialist society? What would be the upper bounds to wealth in a socialist society? Who decides how it is distributed and why? Does socialism reject property in the same way communism does?

Marx deals with this question in The Communist Manifesto -- the abolition of private property refers to productive property -- not necessarily your house and car or family jewels. As for those things, the bourgeoisie have already taken personal property -- homes foreclosed on and cars repossessed, etc.

There can be millionaires under socialism, but they do not get the special treatment that they do in bourgeois society. The Basic tenet of socialism is "If you work, you eat:" meaning that you will not be denied anything you work for. Since the means of production are socially owned, you can use income generated from industry to care for the sick, elderly and disabled.

Read Lenin's "The State and Revolution," wherein he explains socialist structure and explains communism, too.

BTW, communism does not reject property, it merely governs it -- but we are a long way from that.
 
All the other Reds seem to have rejected dialectical materialism as a useful analysis. What about you?
 
caketastydelish said:
In a society with no state (which is what communism is from my understanding) how will crime be solved? If there's no police officers, can't some guy just go in my house and kill me, and he doesn't get punished?

We are not there, yet. As Lenin states in"The state and revolution" -- incidentally it's not the only book I have read, it's just the most handy for answering questions like this --, the progression of socialism to communism involves a process where the state withers away and government becomes a government of things, not people.

In the meantime, socialism has laws and they are enforced -- so that the company executive who markets bad milk that kills children WILL be punished if he is convicted of a crime, just the same as the guy who commits murder. Fidel, in the Sierra Maestra punished members of his own unut who stole, raped or murdered. No liberals, there.
 
ace99 said:
All the other Reds seem to have rejected dialectical materialism as a useful analysis. What about you?

Heck, no. Better red than dead. Dialectical materialism is THE basis for all of the successful socialist revolutions. I can't speak for the rest of the ungentlemen, but I, for a one, am a dyed-in-the-wool left Hegelian, Dialectical materialism is my underlying philosophy.
 
All the other Reds seem to have rejected dialectical materialism as a useful analysis.

Dialectical meterialism isn't an analysis, it's a prediction " which proposes that every economic order grows to a state of maximum efficiency, while simultaneously developing internal contradictions and weaknesses that contribute to its systemic decay".

the progression of socialism to communism involves a process where the state withers away and government becomes a government of things, not people.

How?
 
Fidel, in the Sierra Maestra punished members of his own unut who stole, raped or murdered. No liberals, there.

That's quite true. Guevara personally executed people suspected of those crimes, including minors, and by all accounts took great pleasure and satisfaction from that. Humanism, you know.
 
JEELEN said:
Dialectical meterialism isn't an analysis, it's a prediction " which proposes that every economic order grows to a state of maximum efficiency, while simultaneously developing internal contradictions and weaknesses that contribute to its systemic decay".

How?

That is not true. Dialectics proposes that nothing is unrelated, that within every observable phenomena there is a unity of opposites. With these opposites ging toe to toe, there the law of transformation, where minute quantitative changes lead to visible qualitative changes, thereby leading to a negation of the negation. I learned this in physics class by studying boiling water as it turned into steam' changing its state. When you apply this anysis to social studies, yu get dialectical and hostorical materialism.

The right Hegelians proposed that the ideal was the primacy, the left hegelians propsed that materialism was the primacy. I ama left Hegelian.
 
That is not true. Dialectics proposes that nothing is unrelated, that within every observable phenomena there is a unity of opposites. With these opposites ging toe to toe, there the law of transformation, where minute quantitative changes lead to visible qualitative changes, thereby leading to a negation of the negation. I learned this in physics class by studying boiling water as it turned into steam' changing its state. When you apply this anysis to social studies, yu get dialectical and hostorical materialism.
.

You guys shouldn't attempt to explain the natural sciences with dialectics, because it really does not work. Just sayin'
 
JEELEN said:

In regards to how a society transitions to communism via a whithering away of the state, that is not easy to answer in a post -- but youasked, so here goes:

Under socialism, the means of production are socially owned, and the government wields its authority by a mandate from the people. Institutions of government are set up to deal with the problems that come up -- distribution of resources, provision of medical care, education, etc. Since you still have the old classes, the class antagonisms still exist, i.e. the former ruling class still owns a lot and therefore the government is there to prevent the former ruling class from exploiting the working class, while society unlearns the old habits of every person for themselves and learns how to solve common problems, common social problems together.

Once -- and this takes a long time and takes different forms in different places -- you resolve the class contradictions, you will start to have no need for a government of people.

I hope this is a start to answering that question.
 
luiz said:
You guys shouldn't attempt to explain the natural sciences with dialectics, because it really does not work. Just sayin'

Tell that to my biology, physics and chemistry professors! Tell that to a pot of boiling water. Read VI Lenin's Materialism and Empirio-Criticism wherein he discussed the application of dialectics to the natural sciences. You can also read Thomas Huxley, Albert Kammerer and Charles Darwin. You can't change the laws of nature, amigo.
 
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