Ask a Red III

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Communism means the composition of the working class as a political subject though the development of direct self-organisations outside and against the mediation of capital and state. Participation in electoral politics means accepting this mediation, the disruption of self-organisation and the decomposition of the working class political subject. It means delivering class discipline in exchange for a material well-being that was always ours to take; selling them the rope with which they will hang us.

well there are 80 odd million members who are signed up and agree with the Constitution of the party and its general principals (a requirement for joining)

http://www.chinatoday.com/org/cpc/china_communist_party_constitution.htm#1
I have no idea what you think that proves.
 
It's China, they cnan make it mean nothing at all or anything they want it to. 80 million people's less than 10% of the population, the masses simply don't know what Communism or Socialism are.
 
Most Communist Party members are professionals, bureaucrats and the like. They don't care, they just know that they have to sign up to advance their careers.
 
My next question (regarding the efficiency of communist managed non-market economy).

Such a saying was popular in European communist countries before 1989:

"If communists took over the Sahara Desert, there would be a shortage of sand in two years."

What do you think about this saying, how much truth is there in it?

Obviously the joke uses the absurd, but I know it was meant to complain about supply shortages in those countries.
By way of answer I would like to point out that it is is easy to have fully stocked shelves in stores if the prices are high enough to exclude part of the population. Market economy manages supply be restricting demand. It does work. Even in poor countries there are no "market shortages", price sees to it. Doesn't mean their population is better off.

I've also always had the impression that one cause of the overall comparatively poorer productivity of the eastern block in consumer goods when compared to the developed western one was the issue of availability of resources. The USA were particularly blessed with easily exploitable natural resources, not so for its big rival in the Cold War (which had also harsher climates to deal with). Between higher resource needs and misguided autarky the USSR got itself into its 1980s economic problems. The Chinese learned the lesson and accepted the necessity of engaging strongly in international trade.

Do all socialists/communists agree with Marx's quote "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need?"

Marx was intending to describe the sort of logic on which a communist society would out of necessity be organised. It wasn't an ethical claim in and of itself.

It wasn't only an ethical claim in Marx's work, true. It would be the natural outcome of the end of class warfare which Marx saw as inevitable at some point in the future. For when such class warfare becomes just history there will be no reason for people not to use their abilities, and no reason for people not to have what they need. No more artificial scarcity for the sake of establishing relationships of domination.

But in the meanwhile it was, and has been, a strong ethical influence among communists. Belief that some future social organization will come to pass is not a mobilizing force: you may as well do nothing and wait for it.
Belief that a future form social organization is desirable is what makes people put some effort into bringing it about. And Marx most definitely agreed that people had to put their effort into it. In fact that desire predates Marx, has been the big thing in common among socialists of all kinds ever since socialism came to be. Socialism has always been about finding some way to end the hobbesian view of society as a "war of all against all" and that desire is first and foremost an ethical thing.
 
I'm not sure what either of you's trying to prove… :confused:
 
I'm not sure what either of you's trying to prove… :confused:

well nothing... just throwing the ideas about..., like the CCP have said that they are not economically and culturally ready for communism and that it will take 100+ years to get to that point... so China gets ready ecconomically after just 50 years, and people say "well they are not realy communist"... but that is excatly what the CCP said to start with, it part of their plan from day one...

that can be read as a failure of communism or just maybe they are right on track...
 
well nothing... just throwing the ideas about..., like the CCP have said that they are not economically and culturally ready for communism and that it will take 100+ years to get to that point... so China gets ready ecconomically after just 50 years, and people say "well they are not realy communist"... but that is excatly what the CCP said to start with, it part of their plan from day one...
What "plan"? What the are you even talking about?
 
I'm not sure about that, either.
 
What "plan"? What the are you even talking about?

well the statement from their general principals that you did not understand last time i linked it....
China is at the primary stage of socialism and will remain so for a long period of time. This is a historical stage which cannot be skipped in socialist modernization in China that is backward economically and culturally. It will last for over a hundred years. In socialist construction we must proceed from our specific conditions and take the path to socialism with Chinese characteristics. At the present stage, the principal contradiction in Chinese society is one between the ever-growing material and cultural needs of the people and the low level of production. Owing to both domestic circumstances and foreign influences, class struggle will continue to exist within a certain scope for a long time and may possibly grow acute under certain conditions, but it is no longer the principal contradiction. In building socialism, our basic task is to further release and develop the productive forces and achieve socialist modernization step by step by carrying out reform in those aspects and links of the production relations and the superstructure that do not conform to the development of the productive forces
from their Constitution.... part 1
http://www.chinatoday.com/org/cpc/china_communist_party_constitution.htm#1

like I said its a complete failure or just maybe, everything is going to plan...
 
How is that a plan? It's just a bunch of vaguely Marxisant jargon mashed up together.
 
How is that a plan? It's just a bunch of vaguely Marxisant jargon mashed up together.
It's just a bunch of letters piled together saying that socialism is whatever they want it to be because in Chien thigns are different.

By the Traitorfishian definition of communism, since the people don't get a say in how their affairs are governed, then it's not a Communist place.
[...]

Annnnd Traitorfish finally meets his equal in Takhisis! :lol:

Ok, sorry, I know this is "the chamber", but that was just too funny not to comment!
:huh: Don't make me laugh.

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…

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Too late. :lol:
 
How is that a plan? It's just a bunch of vaguely Marxisant jargon mashed up together.

but does not alot of vaguely Marxist jargon mashed up together lead people to say that Russia was not ready for the proletariat revolution, even Marx moved to London, it seems to have been argued that a communist state can not form from a rural peasant population and that a industrial proletariat needs to be formed first...

exactly the argument made in the general principals of the Chinese Communist Party's Constitution... "the plan" or in Capitalist terms ... "the vision statement"... it worked for Apple
 
but does not alot of vaguely Marxist jargon mashed up together lead people to say that Russia was not ready for the proletariat revolution, even Marx moved to London, it seems to have been argued that a communist state can not form from a rural peasant population and that a industrial proletariat needs to be formed first...

exactly the argument made in the general principals of the Chinese Communist Party's Constitution... "the plan" or in Capitalist terms ... "the vision statement"... it worked for Apple

Nah, it goes beyond that. That little snipped doesn't talk of lack lack of a proletariat, it admits that one exists (worsening class struggle and all). It talks about some lack of "modern productivity" and some kind of vulnerability vis-a-vis external adversaries. It talks about ignoring class struggle for the sake of tackling those which are presented as more pressing problems. Deliberately postponing concerns about class struggle has hardly ever been a communist thing, though you can say that they're at least matching the words to the acts... I guess that the NEP strategy in Russia could be somehow compared that?
I'm now curious about in what date that particular bit was put in. Because that course in China goes back at least to the early 80s.
 
but does not alot of vaguely Marxist jargon mashed up together lead people to say that Russia was not ready for the proletariat revolution, even Marx moved to London, it seems to have been argued that a communist state can not form from a rural peasant population and that a industrial proletariat needs to be formed first...

exactly the argument made in the general principals of the Chinese Communist Party's Constitution... "the plan" or in Capitalist terms ... "the vision statement"... it worked for Apple
That doesn't make it a plan.
 
That doesn't make it a plan.
well it makes it a statement of intent and purpose .... so i beg to differ from you.. it is their general programe

plan (pln)
n.
1. A scheme, program, or method worked out beforehand for the accomplishment of an objective: a plan of attack.
2. A proposed or tentative project or course of action: had no plans for the evening.
3. A systematic arrangement of elements or important parts; a configuration or outline: a seating plan; the plan of a story.
4. A drawing or diagram made to scale showing the structure or arrangement of something.
5. In perspective rendering, one of several imaginary planes perpendicular to the line of vision between the viewer and the object being depicted.
6. A program or policy stipulating a service or benefit: a pension plan.
v. planned, plan·ning, plans
v.tr.
1. To formulate a scheme or program for the accomplishment, enactment, or attainment of: plan a campaign.
2. To have as a specific aim or purpose; intend: They plan to buy a house.
3. To draw or make a graphic representation of.
v.intr.
To make plans.

there is something to be said for chinese re-education .... the chinese KNOW what marxist aims are...
 
They just aim for something else.
 
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