Ask a Turk

[knigh+]

In other words, almost every Turk I have ever seen denies the Armenian Genocide and/or blames the Armenians.

Almost every Armenian you have ever seen denies the Turkish Genocide and/or blames the Turks.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

What Turkish Genocide? Did the Armenians commit genocide against their imperial rulers?

And who cares what they think? I was referring to historians. But whatever.

 

[knigh+]

We don't feel the need to label it as such. But it is well documented in Ottoman and Russian archieves that Armenians killed a huge number of civilian Turks (and Kurds). Turks aren't denying deaths of Armenians; we just dont agree with labelling the suffering of three nations as if it belonged to only one. If you agree with the Armenian opinion that Armenian deaths are worth commemorating while Turkish aren't, than my comment is the same as yours - whatever.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

On the contrary, I am fascinated; you seem to have access to information I have never seen in any historical source.

 

[knigh+]

I have read stuff from both sides, propaganda and otherwise. Not being a historian I didn't bother to keep track of any reference. In these I often saw some (not all) Armenian allegations disproven (sometimes by other Armenians) and no reasonable defense against the accusations from the Turkish side (except blabberings of "we are victims, to suggest else is evil").

quick search of the web and copy paste gives a summary article, with reference list at the bottom.

Spoiler :

The issue:

Whether during the collapse of the Ottoman Empire genocide was perpetrated against Ottoman Armenian citizens in Eastern Anatolia.

The Ottoman Empire ruled over all of Anatolia and significant parts of Europe, North Africa, the Caucasus and Middle East for over 700 years. Lands once Ottoman dominions today comprise more than 30 independent nations.

A century of ever-increasing conflict, beginning roughly in 1820 and culminating with the founding of the Republic of Turkey in 1923, characterized the disintegration of the Ottoman Empire. The imperiled empire contracted against an onslaught of external invaders and internal nationalist independence movements. In this context must the tragic experience of the Ottoman Armenians of Eastern Anatolia be understood. For during these waning days of the Ottoman Empire did millions die Muslim, Jew and Christian alike.

Yet Armenian Americans have attempted to extricate and isolate their history from the complex circumstances in which their ancestors were embroiled. In so doing, they describe a world populated only by white-hatted heroes and black-hatted villains. Infusing history with myth, Armenian Americans vilify the Republic of Turkey, Turkish Americans, and ethnic Turks worldwide. Bent on this prosecution, Armenian Americans choose their evidence carefully, omitting facts that tend to exonerate those whom they presume guilty, ignoring important events and verifiable accounts, and sometimes relying on dubious or prejudiced sources and even falsified documents.

Any attempt to challenge the credibility of witnesses, or the authenticity of documents is either wholly squelched or met with accusations of genocide denial. Moreover, attempts to expose the suffering and needless death of millions of innocent non-Christians enmeshed in the same events as the Anatolian Armenians

are greeted with sneers, as if to say that some lives are inherently more valuable than others and that one faith is more deserving than another. The lack of real debate ensures that any consideration of what genuinely occurred nearly a century ago in Eastern Anatolia will utterly fail as a search for the truth.

Ultimately, whether to blindly accept the Armenian American portrayal is an issue of fundamental fairness and the most cherished of American rights - free speech. Simply put, in America every person has the opportunity to tell his or her story. However, Armenian Americans seek to deny this very right to others by branding anyone who disagrees with their portrayal a "genocide denier." The complete story of the vast suffering of this period has not yet been written. When that story is told, the following facts must not be forgotten.

Demographic studies prove that prior to World War I fewer than 1.5 million Armenians lived in the entire Ottoman Empire. Thus, allegations that more than 1.5 million Armenians from eastern Anatolia died must be false.

Figures reporting the pre-World War I Armenian population vary widely, with Armenian sources claiming far more than others. British, French and Ottoman sources give total figures of 1.05-1.50 million. Only certain Armenian sources claim a pre-war population larger than 1.50 million. Comparing these to post-war figures yields a rough estimate of losses. Boghos Nubar, head of the Armenian delegation at the Paris Peace Conference in 1920, noted that significant numbers survived the war. He declared that after the war 280,000 Armenians remained in the Anatolian portion of the occupied Ottoman Empire while 700,000 Armenians had emigrated to other countries. Historian and demographer, Dr. Justin McCarthy of the University of Louisville, calculates the actual losses as slightly less than 600,000. This figure agrees with those provided by British historian Arnold Toynbee, French missionary, Monseigneur Touchet, and others.

Over 2.5 million Muslims died during the same period from similar causes.

Armenians suffered a high mortality. But one must likewise consider the number of non-Christian dead. The statistics tell us that more than 2.5 million Anatolian Muslims also perished. Thus, the years 1912-1922 constitute a horrible period for humanity, not just for Armenians. Documents of the time describe intercommunal violence, forced migration of all ethnic groups, disease, and famine as causes of death.

Armenian American evidence of genocide is derived from dubious and prejudicial sources.

Armenian Americans purport that the wartime propaganda of the enemies of the Ottoman Empire constitutes objective evidence. Oft-quoted Ambassador Henry Morgenthau stated in correspondence with President Wilson that he intended to uncover or manufacture news that would goad the U.S. into joining the war, and thus he sought to malign the Ottoman Empire, an enemy of the Triple Entente. Moreover, Morgenthau relied on politically motivated Armenians; his primary aid, translator and confidant was Arshag Schmavonian, his secretary was Hagop Andonian. Morgenthau professed that the Turks were an inferior race. Thus, his accounts can hardly be considered objective.

Compare the wartime writings of Morgenthau and the oft-cited J.G. Harbord to the post-war writings of Admiral Mark L. Bristol, U.S. Ambassador to the Republic of Turkey 1920-1926. In a March 28,1921 letter he wrote, "[R]eports are being freely circulated in the [U.S.] that the Turks massacred thousands of Armenians in the Caucasus. Such reports are repeated so many times it makes my blood boil. The Near East Relief have the reports from Yarrow and our own American people which show absolutely that such Armenian reports are absolutely false. The circulation of such false reports in the United States, without refutation, is an outrage and is certainly doing the Armenians more harm than good.... Why not tell the truth about the Armenians in every way?"

The Armenian deaths do not constitute genocide.

A. Boghos Nubar addressed a letter to the Times of London on January 30,1919 confirming that the Armenians were indeed belligerents in World War I. He stated with pride, "In the Caucasus, without mentioning the 150,000 Armenians in the Russian armies, about 50,000 Armenian volunteers under Andranik, Mazarbekoff, and others not only fought for four years for the cause of the Entente, but after the breakdown of Russia they were the only forces in the Caucasus to resist the advance of the Turks...."

Between 1893 and 1915 Ottoman Armenians in eastern Anatolia rebelled against their government -the Ottoman government -- and joined Armenian revolutionary groups, such as the notorious Dashnaks and Hunchaks. They spearheaded a massive Russian invasion of Eastern Anatolia. On November 5, 1914, the President of the Armenian National Bureau in Tblisi declared to Czar Nicholas II, "From all countries Armenians are hurrying to enter the ranks for the glorious Russian Army, with their blood to serve the victory of Russian arms." In the service of the Russians, traitorous Armenians massacred over 60,000 Muslims in the city of Van alone.

B. The allegation of genocide is illogical. In the words of eminent historian Bernard Lewis, speaking to the Israeli daily Ha'aretz on January 23,1998, "The Armenians want to benefit from both worlds. On the one hand, they speak with pride of their struggle against Ottoman despotism, while on the other hand they compare their tragedy to the Jewish Holocaust. I do not accept this. I do not say that the Armenians did not suffer terribly. But I find enough cause for me to contain their attempts to use the Armenian massacres to diminish the worth of the Jewish Holocaust and to relate to it instead as an ethnic dispute." (translation)

C. None of the Ottoman orders commanding the relocation of Armenians, which have been reviewed by historians to date, orders killings. To the contrary, they order Ottoman officials to protect relocated Armenians. Unfortunately, where Ottoman control was weak, Armenian relocatees suffered most. The stories of the time give examples of columns of hundreds of Armenians guarded by as few as two Ottoman gendarmes. When local Muslims attacked the columns, Armenians were robbed and killed. These Muslims had themselves suffered greatly at the hands of Armenians and Russians. Conversely,where Ottoman control was strong, Armenians went unharmed. In Istanbul and other major Western Anatolian cities, large populations of Armenians remained throughout the war, their churches open.

D. The term "genocide" did not exist prior to 1944. It was later defined quite specifically by the 1948 U.N. Convention on the Prevention of the Crime of Genocide. The standard of proof in establishing the crime of genocide is formidable given the severity of the crime, the opportunity for overlap with other crimes, and the stigma of being charged with or found guilty of the crime. While presenting the Convention for ratification, the Secretary General of the U.N. emphasized that genocide is a crime of "specific intent," requiring conclusive proof that members of a group were targeted simply because they were members of that group. The Secretary General further cautioned that those merely sharing political aims are not protected by the convention.

Under this standard of proof, the Armenian American claim of genocide fails. First, no direct evidence has been discovered demonstrating that any Ottoman official sought the destruction of the Ottoman Armenians as such. Second, Ottoman Armenian revolutionaries confessedly waged war against their own government. Under these circumstances, it was the Ottoman Armenians' violent political alliance with the Russian forces, not their ethnic or religious identity, which rendered them subject to the relocation.

The British convened the Malta Tribunal to try Ottoman officials for crimes against Armenians. All of the accused were acquitted.

In 1919 The British High Commission in Istanbul, utilizing Armenian informants, arrested 144 high Ottoman officials and deported them to the island of Malta for trial on charges of harming Armenians. While the deportees were interned in Malta, the British appointed an Armenian scholar, Mr. Haig Khazarian, to conduct a thorough examination of the Ottoman, British, and U.S. archives to substantiate the charges. Though granted complete access to all records, Khazarian's corps of investigators discovered an utter lack of evidence demonstrating that the Ottoman officials either sanctioned or encouraged killings of Armenians. The British Procurator General exonerated and released all 144 detainees - - after two years and four months of detention without trial. No compensation was ever paid to the detainees.

Despite the acquittals by the Malta Tribunal, Armenian terrorists have engaged in a vigilante war that continues today.

In 1921, a secret Armenian network, named Nemesis, took the law into its own hands and hunted down and assassinated several former Ottoman Ministers, among them Talat Pasha and Jemal Pasha. Following in Nemesis' footsteps, during the 1970's and 1980's the Armenian terrorist groups ASALA (Armenian Secret Army for the Liberation of Armenia) and JCAG (Justice Commandos of the Armenian Genocide) committed over 230 armed attacks, killing 71 innocent people, including 31 Turkish diplomats, and seriously wounding over 520 people in a campaign of blood revenge.

The Holocaust bears no meaningful relation to the Ottoman Armenian experience.

1. Jews neither demanded the dismemberment of the nations in which they had lived nor did they kill their fellow citizens. By contrast, Ottoman Armenians openly agitated for a separate state in lands in which they were numerically inferior. With determination they committed mass treason, and took up arms against their government. They also massacred local Muslim and Jewish civilians.

2. The guilt of the perpetrators of the Holocaust was proven at Nuremberg. By contrast, those alleged to have been responsible for the maladministration of the relocation policies were exonerated at Malta by the World War I victors.

3. Hitler did not refer to the Armenians in plotting the Final Solution; the infamous quote is fraudulent. For this reason it was rejected as evidence by the Nuremberg tribunal.

4. Armenians collaborated with the Nazis, forming the 812th Battalion of the [Nazi] Wehrmacht, and its successor, the Armenian legion. Armenians published Anti-Jewish, pro-Nazi propaganda in the Armenian-language Hairenik daily and the Armenian weekly journal.

The depth and volume of scholarship on the Holocaust is tremendous. By contrast, much about the late Ottoman Empire has yet to be learned and many conclusions have yet to be drawn.

Suggested reading

Armenian Atrocities and Terrorism, ed. by theAssembly of Turkish American Associations (Assembly of Turkish American Associations, Washington, DC, 1997);

Death and Exile: the Ethnic Cleansing of Ottoman Muslims, 1821-1922, by Justin McCarthy (Darwin Press, Princeton, New Jersey. 1995);

Muslims and Minorities, The Population of Ottoman Anatolia and the End of the Empire, by Justin McCarthy (New York University Press, New York, 1983);

Pursuing the Just Cause of Their People, by Michael Gunter (Greenwood Press, New York, 1986);

The Armenian File: The Myth of Innocence Exposed, by Kamuran Guriin (K. Riistem & Bro. and Weidenfeld & Nicolson Ltd., London, 1985);

The Armenian Question 1914-1923, by Mim Kemal Oke (K. Rustem & Bro. London, 1988);

The Story Behind Ambassador Morgenthau's Story, by Heath W. Lowry (Isis Press, Istanbul, 1990);

The Talat Pasha Telegrams: Historical Fact or Armenian Fiction, by Sinasi Orel and SQreyyaYuca (K. Rustem & Bro., London, 1986);

The U.S. Congress and Adolf Hitler on the Armenians, by Heath W. Lowry (Vol. 3, No. 2, Political Communication and Persuasion, 1985);

Proceedings of Symposium on Armenians in the Ottoman Empire and Turkey (1912-1926), (Bogazigi University Publications, Istanbul, 1984) and

History of the Ottoman Empire and Modern Turkey, by Stanford and Ezel Shaw (Cambridge University Press, Cambridge, U.K., 1977).

Among the references, the prominent ones are Justin McCarthy and Stanford Shaw, who are/were (Shaw died recently I think) professors in US universities, with expertise on the history of the region. (Others may be profs, too, I didn't google them).

Unfortunately, anybody who attempts to make an objective investigation of the matter is often buried under death threats from Armenian gangs.


I don't like to spend too much time on the subject though, as it is counterproductive and hate-inspiring for everybody. Intellectuals should put their efforts into understanding the causes so that things like this never happen again, rather than argueing over how horroible were the horribly large casualty numbers on each side.

 

[phoenix_sprite]

@ParkCungHee: I know that Borat isn't a legiminate source of information on Kazakhstan! There's Wikipedia after all!

@knight+: I think Borat, the character, was more russian than a turk (his name is russian sounding) and people that take borat seriously should maybe consider that this is a COMEDY! But I do like Borat's version of the Kazakhstan national anthem.

 

[knigh+]

@knight+: I think Borat, the character, was more russian than a turk (his name is russian sounding) and people that take borat seriously should maybe consider that this is a COMEDY! But I do like Borat's version of the Kazakhstan national anthem.

My sentiments are regardless of which ethnicity the character portrays.

 

[useless]

so i guess the armenians are the evil ones deserved the genocide the turkish commited upon them and the turks are the heroes and dont deserve to be hated by the armenians.

 

[Balton]

Voaww what a thread!!

I stumbled on to this thread by chance and I must congratulate AzKonus for starting it.

His initial idea was to resolve the misconceptions and misinformation on Turkey but having read all the pages, it has gone more political lately in 4 distinctive apparent topics:

1. Armenian issue,
2. Kurdish issue,
3. Cyprus issue,
4. EU Membership.

Being a fellow Turk here is my 2 cents:

1. History!! But Knights+ has a well documented link and my only addition would be that it was case of "causilties of war". After all, the Armenians revolted and back stabbed an advancing Ottoman Army, cutting lines and leaving them in cross-fire. So towards the end of the War the Armenians were removed from the supply lines to a place where they were non-influential.

2. This situation changes by the day. Right now the US pulled out of 3 towns in N.Iraq. There is a mass deployment of Turkish 2nd Army along the border so watch this space as things will get hot in the next coming weeks.

3. Part-history but Turkey will garrison troops there as a bargaining chip.

4. This is a love-hate saga between EU and Turkey but I expect Turkey to be a full member by or before 2015...

So if there are other general questions regarding Turkey or Hot Turkish Women , please do ask as I am back in Istanbul since 2001 and the summer season along the Bosporus just began.

Cheers

 

[scy12]

Voaww what a thread!!

I stumbled on to this thread by chance and I must congratulate AzKonus for starting it.

His initial idea was to resolve the misconceptions and misinformation on Turkey but having read all the pages, it has gone more political lately in 4 distinctive apparent topics:

1. Armenian issue,
2. Kurdish issue,
3. Cyprus issue,
4. EU Membership.

Being a fellow Turk here is my 2 cents:

1. History!! But Knights+ has a well documented link and my only addition would be that it was case of "causilties of war". After all, the Armenians revolted and back stabbed an advancing Ottoman Army, cutting lines and leaving them in cross-fire. So towards the end of the War the Armenians were removed from the supply lines to a place where they were non-influential.

2. This situation changes by the day. Right now the US pulled out of 3 towns in N.Iraq. There is a mass deployment of Turkish 2nd Army along the border so watch this space as things will get hot in the next coming weeks.

3. Part-history but Turkey will garrison troops there as a bargaining chip.

4. This is a love-hate saga between EU and Turkey but I expect Turkey to be a full member by or before 2015...

So if there are other general questions regarding Turkey or Hot Turkish Women , please do ask as I am back in Istanbul since 2001 and the summer season along the Bosporus just began.

Cheers

1) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_Armenian_casualties
While there is no clear consensus as to how many Armenians lost their lives during what is called the Armenian genocide and what followed, there seems to be a consensus among Western scholars with the exception of few dissident and Turkish national historians, as to when covering all the period between 1914 to 1923, over a million Armenian might have perished, and the tendency seem recently to be, either presenting 1.2 million as figure or even 1.5 million, while more moderately, "over a million" is presented, as the Turkish historian Fikret Adanir provides as estimation, but excludes what followed 1917.

1.2 million people , how can you call this anything than a genocide ?


3) " The invasion and occupation has had disastrous consequences. About 142.000 Greek Cypriots living in the north – nearly one quarter of the population of Cyprus – were forcibly expelled from the occupied northern part of the island where they constituted 80% of the population. These people are still deprived of the right to return to their homes and properties. A further 20.000 Greek Cypriots enslaved in the occupied area were gradually forced through intimidation and denial of their basic human rights to abandon their homes. Today there are fewer than 600 enslaved persons (Greek Cypriots and Maronites).
35.000 Turkish soldiers equipped with the latest weapons and supported by the Turkish air force and navy, are still in the occupied area making it, according to the UN Secretary-General’s Report (December 1995), «one of the most densely militarized areas in the world».

The illegal regime in the occupied area has pursued a deliberate policy aimed at destroying and plundering the ancient cultural and historical heritage of the island, as part of a wider goal to 'Turkify' the island and erases all evidence of its Cypriot character. Abundant evidence gathered from foreign and Turkish Cypriot press, as well as evidence obtained from other authoritative sources (Jacques Deli bard’s UNESCO report); demonstrate the magnitude of the damage and destruction caused to the cultural heritage of Cyprus.

As a consequence of Turkey’s policy and illegal actions:

* at least 55 churches have been converted into mosques
* another 50 churches and monasteries have been converted into stables, stores, hostels, museums, or have been demolished
* the cemeteries of at least 25 villages have been desecrated and destroyed
* innumerable icons, religious artifacts and all kinds of archaeological treasures have been stolen and smuggled abroad
* illegal excavations and smuggling of antiquities is openly taking place all the time with the involvement of the occupying forces
* all Greek place names contrary to all historical and cultural reason were converted into Turkish ones.

In this respect, the Republic of Cyprus is making great efforts to recover stolen items which include invaluable icons, frescoes, mosaics, texts and artifacts. A successful case of repatriation involved the 6th century mosaics that were illegally removed from the church of Panayia Kanakaria in the occupied areas and sold to an art dealer in the USA. Following a legal battle that generated world attention, the US Courts ruled that the mosaics should be returned to their legal owner, the Church of Cyprus. Similar legal battles are now under way in the Federal Republic of Germany, where Cyprus is striving to repatriate hundreds of items stolen from churches in the occupied part of Cyprus.

In contrast to the total disrespect shown by the occupation regime, all Muslim sites in the area controlled by the Government of Cyprus are properly and respectfully kept, preserved and maintained by the competent authorities.

On 15 November 1983 the Turkish-occupied area was unilaterally declared an independent “state”. The international community, through UN Security Council Resolutions 541 of 1983 and 550 of 1984, condemned this unilateral declaration by the Turkish Cypriot regime, declared it both illegal and invalid, and called for its immediate revocation. To this day, no country in the world except Turkey has recognized this spurious entity. Negotiations for the solution of the Cyprus problem have been going on intermittently since 1975 under the auspices of the United Nations. The basis for the solution of the Cyprus problem are the UN Security Council resolutions and two high-level agreements concluded between the Greek Cypriot and the Turkish Cypriot leaders in 1977 and 1979.

In an effort to enhance the prospects for a settlement and safeguard the security of all Cypriots, the Government of Cyprus had formally proposed the total demilitarization of Cyprus. The proposal envisaged the withdrawal of the 35,000 Turkish occupying forces and the disbanding of the Cyprus National Guard and the “Turkish Cypriot Armed Forces” who would hand their weapons and military equipment to UN Peace-Keeping Force (UNFICYP). UNFICYP would have the right of inspection to ascertain compliance with these measures. Turkey refused to consider the proposal and continues to maintain its illegal military hold on the island. " You are also aware of the Fact that no country other than Turkey accept your banana state or the continuation of The militarization .



Considering that all Turks i met are Nationalist ,who see what they want to see and you also shown such signs , i don't expect you to accept any of the above events are true.

 

[useless]

1) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_Armenian_casualties
While there is no clear consensus as to how many Armenians lost their lives during what is called the Armenian genocide and what followed, there seems to be a consensus among Western scholars with the exception of few dissident and Turkish national historians, as to when covering all the period between 1914 to 1923, over a million Armenian might have perished, and the tendency seem recently to be, either presenting 1.2 million as figure or even 1.5 million, while more moderately, "over a million" is presented, as the Turkish historian Fikret Adanir provides as estimation, but excludes what followed 1917.

1.2 million people , how can you call this anything than a genocide ?


3) " The invasion and occupation has had disastrous consequences. About 142.000 Greek Cypriots living in the north – nearly one quarter of the population of Cyprus – were forcibly expelled from the occupied northern part of the island where they constituted 80% of the population. These people are still deprived of the right to return to their homes and properties. A further 20.000 Greek Cypriots enslaved in the occupied area were gradually forced through intimidation and denial of their basic human rights to abandon their homes. Today there are fewer than 600 enslaved persons (Greek Cypriots and Maronites).
35.000 Turkish soldiers equipped with the latest weapons and supported by the Turkish air force and navy, are still in the occupied area making it, according to the UN Secretary-General’s Report (December 1995), «one of the most densely militarized areas in the world».

The illegal regime in the occupied area has pursued a deliberate policy aimed at destroying and plundering the ancient cultural and historical heritage of the island, as part of a wider goal to 'Turkify' the island and erases all evidence of its Cypriot character. Abundant evidence gathered from foreign and Turkish Cypriot press, as well as evidence obtained from other authoritative sources (Jacques Deli bard’s UNESCO report); demonstrate the magnitude of the damage and destruction caused to the cultural heritage of Cyprus.

As a consequence of Turkey’s policy and illegal actions:

* at least 55 churches have been converted into mosques
* another 50 churches and monasteries have been converted into stables, stores, hostels, museums, or have been demolished
* the cemeteries of at least 25 villages have been desecrated and destroyed
* innumerable icons, religious artifacts and all kinds of archaeological treasures have been stolen and smuggled abroad
* illegal excavations and smuggling of antiquities is openly taking place all the time with the involvement of the occupying forces
* all Greek place names contrary to all historical and cultural reason were converted into Turkish ones.

In this respect, the Republic of Cyprus is making great efforts to recover stolen items which include invaluable icons, frescoes, mosaics, texts and artifacts. A successful case of repatriation involved the 6th century mosaics that were illegally removed from the church of Panayia Kanakaria in the occupied areas and sold to an art dealer in the USA. Following a legal battle that generated world attention, the US Courts ruled that the mosaics should be returned to their legal owner, the Church of Cyprus. Similar legal battles are now under way in the Federal Republic of Germany, where Cyprus is striving to repatriate hundreds of items stolen from churches in the occupied part of Cyprus.

In contrast to the total disrespect shown by the occupation regime, all Muslim sites in the area controlled by the Government of Cyprus are properly and respectfully kept, preserved and maintained by the competent authorities.

On 15 November 1983 the Turkish-occupied area was unilaterally declared an independent “state”. The international community, through UN Security Council Resolutions 541 of 1983 and 550 of 1984, condemned this unilateral declaration by the Turkish Cypriot regime, declared it both illegal and invalid, and called for its immediate revocation. To this day, no country in the world except Turkey has recognized this spurious entity. Negotiations for the solution of the Cyprus problem have been going on intermittently since 1975 under the auspices of the United Nations. The basis for the solution of the Cyprus problem are the UN Security Council resolutions and two high-level agreements concluded between the Greek Cypriot and the Turkish Cypriot leaders in 1977 and 1979.

In an effort to enhance the prospects for a settlement and safeguard the security of all Cypriots, the Government of Cyprus had formally proposed the total demilitarization of Cyprus. The proposal envisaged the withdrawal of the 35,000 Turkish occupying forces and the disbanding of the Cyprus National Guard and the “Turkish Cypriot Armed Forces” who would hand their weapons and military equipment to UN Peace-Keeping Force (UNFICYP). UNFICYP would have the right of inspection to ascertain compliance with these measures. Turkey refused to consider the proposal and continues to maintain its illegal military hold on the island. " You are also aware of the Fact that no country other than Turkey accept your banana state or the continuation of The militarization .



Considering that all Turks i met are Nationalist ,who see what they want to see and you also shown such signs , i don't expect you to accept any of the above events are true.

Well it is normal for them to deny and dismiss such things...

 

[ParkCungHee]

Well it is normal for them to deny and dismiss such things...

That doesn't make things better. There seems to be a scale of unnaceptable history denial, it goes something like this
1. German
2. Russia
3. Chinese
4. Turkish
denials of the past that would illicit an audible gasp coming from a german would recieve just a shrug of the shoulders when dealing with the Turks.

 

[useless]

That doesn't make things better. There seems to be a scale of unnaceptable history denial, it goes something like this
1. German
2. Russia
3. Chinese
4. Turkish
denials of the past that would illicit an audible gasp coming from a german would recieve just a shrug of the shoulders when dealing with the Turks.

i dont see any germans currently denying any genocide right now, do you? infact denying the holocaust here in germany is an offence.

 

[ParkCungHee]

i dont see any germans currently denying any genocide right now, do you? infact denying the holocaust here in germany is an offence.

Thats exactly my point. If a german was to deny it, especially say, a politician, the world would screech to a halt as the man would be condemned, and the few that do are imprisoned. And rightfuly so. But when the Turks do the same thing with their Genocide, its greeted merely with a shrug of the shoulders saying "what do you expect?"

 

[knigh+]

so i guess the armenians are the evil ones deserved the genocide the turkish commited upon them and the turks are the heroes and dont deserve to be hated by the armenians.

Not at all. War is bad. People die. If you wish to fall into the racism of painting one side black and the other white, that is your naivety.

Considering that all Turks i met are Nationalist ,who see what they want to see and you also shown such signs , i don't expect you to accept any of the above events are true.

What is told is not the problem, what is not told (by Armenians and Greeks) is. I am not more nationalist than people from other nations (I have close friends from many nations including several Greeks and few Armenians, as I have lived outside Turkey for 8 years, so I have a good sample space to say this.). Anybody will look nationalistic when constantly forced to defend his country against biased comments. If you choose to ignore what I say because you mistakenly think I am nationalist, that shows your ignorance.

1.2 million people , how can you call this anything than a genocide ?

I call it genocide, but refuse to call it by a single nation's name while the casualties are divided between nations. Maybe mutual genocide...

Cyprus

I repeat, I prefer to displace 2 humans to save one from certain death. (If you find it, read the interview with Nikos Samson in Wall Street Journal 20+ years ago - He openly states that the first action he was taking (and he had started) was to cleanse Cyprus of the Turks. When the peace operation began, he ordered the troops to kill as many Turkish Cypriots as they can before the Turkish Army arrived to their region. I am not even going to talk about the concentration camps before that.

The problem is that Greeks are mislead into believing Cyprus problem started in 1974, whereas in truth the peace operation was the end of years of bloodshed. That is why we call it peace operation, as the island was in civil war before it, and at peace since the operation (albeit a tense one).

Churches etc is a matter of practicality - if noone's using them, what is the point? Yet I somewhat agree they could have been kept as churches.

PS. I quickly get bored when people post propaganda (such as wiki) without reading what has been posted.

 

[knigh+]

Well it is normal for them to deny and dismiss such things...

I don't remember denying any of those (translation: you are so racially close-minded that you don't even consider the possibility that Turks are capable of expressing themselves - so you put words in our mouth). I am pointing out that those popular unscientific propaganda engines never tell the other side's sufferings.

 

[useless]

I don't remember denying any of those (translation: you are so racially close-minded that you don't even consider the possibility that Turks are capable of expressing themselves - so you put words in our mouth). I am pointing out that those popular unscientific propaganda engines never tell the other side's sufferings.

indeed. i mean the turks were just trying to be friendly!they didnt mean to accidently to kill them. and attempt to elimanate thier presence from turkey!

 

[scy12]

Not at all. War is bad. People die. If you wish to fall into the racism of painting one side black and the other white, that is your naivety.



What is told is not the problem, what is not told (by Armenians and Greeks) is. I am not more nationalist than people from other nations (I have close friends from many nations including several Greeks and few Armenians, as I have lived outside Turkey for 8 years, so I have a good sample space to say this.). Anybody will look nationalistic when constantly forced to defend his country against biased comments. If you choose to ignore what I say because you mistakenly think I am nationalist, that shows your ignorance.





I call it genocide, but refuse to call it by a single nation's name while the casualties are divided between nations. Maybe mutual genocide...



I repeat, I prefer to displace 2 humans to save one from certain death. (If you find it, read the interview with Nikos Samson in Wall Street Journal 20+ years ago - He openly states that the first action he was taking (and he had started) was to cleanse Cyprus of the Turks. When the peace operation began, he ordered the troops to kill as many Turkish Cypriots as they can before the Turkish Army arrived to their region. I am not even going to talk about the concentration camps before that.

The problem is that Greeks are mislead into believing Cyprus problem started in 1974, whereas in truth the peace operation was the end of years of bloodshed. That is why we call it peace operation, as the island was in civil war before it, and at peace since the operation (albeit a tense one).

Churches etc is a matter of practicality - if noone's using them, what is the point? Yet I somewhat agree they could have been kept as churches.

PS. I quickly get bored when people post propaganda (such as wiki) without reading what has been posted.

I repeat, I prefer to displace 2 humans to save one from certain death. (If you find it, read the interview with Nikos Samson in Wall Street Journal 20+ years ago - He openly states that the first action he was taking (and he had started) was to cleanse Cyprus of the Turks. When the peace operation began, he ordered the troops to kill as many Turkish Cypriots as they can before the Turkish Army arrived to their region. I am not even going to talk about the concentration camps before that.

Those are amazing statistics you have there ..



In total, some 133 Greek Cypriots and 191 Turkish Cypriots are known to have been killed[citation needed] in 1963 and 1964. 209 Turkish Cypriots and 41 Greeks were reported as missing. Nearly 20000 Turkish Cypriots, about one sixth of the Turkish Cypriot population, left their homes to live into enclaves. Finally, more than 3000 Armenian ethnics who had been living in the areas of Nicosia that came under the control of Turkish paramilitaries were forced out of their homes. References: 1 Between one to two thousand Greek Cypriots were also displaced forming the first wave of Greek Cypriot refugees..


Maratha containing women and children[citation needed]. The total number of Greek Cypriot casualties of the 1974 invasion was near 3000, of whom 1619 were reported as missing and the rest as killed. 160,000-200,000 Greek Cypriots became refugees. At the same time, 50,000-60,000 defying a policy of the Cypriot government prohibiting their movement into the Turkish controlled areas also left their homes and headed north. References: 1 2

Not to mention the thousands raped and such. And after this event , Turkey continues to hold 50% of the Island although no International organisation accepts that behavior.

I call it genocide, but refuse to call it by a single nation's name while the casualties are divided between nations. Maybe mutual genocide...

You refuse to call it by a single nations name ? That isn't how the term genocide works. Yet , you can show the statistics that prove that it was indeed a " mutual genocide."

PS. I quickly get bored when people post propaganda (such as wiki) without reading what has been posted.

Ofcourse it's Propaganda , Armenian genocide for example, never happened .
Neither did the Holocaust. It's all a lie. Propaganda.

 

[useless]

to be honest turkish history hasnt been full of peace. example.. the slaughter of the byzantine empire by.. guess who? yes the turks! the attempted invasion of italy and hungry.... yes the turks! our peaceful friends!

 

[Turkish_Aries]

to be honest turkish history hasnt been full of peace. example.. the slaughter of the byzantine empire by.. guess who? yes the turks! the attempted invasion of italy and hungry.... yes the turks! our peaceful friends!

i dont wanna start a fight here but you're just looking one side here.

Why was the crusader burn every village and kill women and children on their !holy path!

or what germans did in WW2

or during the colonisation era Spanish and Great Britain slaughter american natives

ı can write lots of things here because there is no civilization which did not enter war in their history

so don't see only the one side turn and look the other one too

peace..