Ask a Turk

[Bill3000]

Where?

In today's Turkey (which was part of Byzantine Empire in 500AD) or in the Turkish Civ of that time (nomadic tribes in central Asia)?

500 AD? The first Turkic state, the Göktürks, was establsihed in 552 AD.

Actually, I've been wondering what the heck was the ethnic distrubition of Anatolia before Manzikert.

 

[Yeeek]

Hey since you're here, i might just ask. You are not Iranian, but Turkey does have Persian Empire legacy, somewhat.

What is your opinion of the recent movie, 300? Do you agree with what have been said in the two different threads on this forum.

 

[Abaddon]

Can i have an answer to both options?

 

[Mirc]

Don't mind him, he's just looking for informations for a NES.

Spoiler :

Actually, don't mind me, answer him, I was just kidding, though what I said is true.

Edit: Post 7000!!!!

 

[knigh+]

Hey since you're here, i might just ask. You are not Iranian, but Turkey does have Persian Empire legacy, somewhat.

What is your opinion of the recent movie, 300? Do you agree with what have been said in the two different threads on this forum.

Well only a couple of centuries of rule 2500 years ago doesn't really make a legacy, especially for Turkey which was a land that was ruled by a lot of civilizations in history.

I haven't seen the movie. But what I thought of the trailer was "here goes another tale of 'civilized west' and 'uncivilized east'". The trailer seemed to portray Persians barbaric - almost orcish. Whereas any history buff knows Persia was also quite an advanced civ of its time. I don't mind having Greeks as the heroes, it is an expected outcome of most of the western culture being descendant from theirs anyway. But in any conflict both sides have good and bad people.

On top of that, my Greek officemate said it is a comic book in motion rather than a historic movie, which in my opinion would probably portray the sides as good and evil. So I didn't feel the excitement to see it (I saw Troy in its first week for example). I guess I'll rent the DVD when it comes out.


Bill and Abaddon, I'll reply about 500AD later (that topic is too long to write during work hours).

 

[knigh+]

500 AD? The first Turkic state, the Göktürks, was establsihed in 552 AD.

552 is correct - I didn't look it up before my post, as it wasn't an answer yet.
However, Gokturks are the first fully Turkic state. Before that there were confederations of Huns, in which Turkic tribes were most numerous (others include Mongol, and Tatar...). These were Great Huns (Xiongnu) in 2nd and 3rd centuries BC. Later were West Huns (Attila's bunch) in 5th century, which was again a mix (Magyar, Bulgar, Tatar but probably much less Turkics than the previous). Then in 5th-6th centuries (including 500AD for Abaddon) there are the White Huns (Hephthalites) who were a mix of Turkic tribes, Persians, Afghans. If you go way back, the east bit of Scythians - as well as their descendents (Yakuts) today also spoke Turkic languages (But most Scythians spoke Indo-Europaic.

The problem of identifying who is who in Asian Steppes arises because Turkic and Tatar tribes migrated all over the place back and forth, throughout the history. That's why they ended up so scattered in modern times. You can safely say that some Turkic peoples have passed over any given piece of land between Adriatic Sea and Wall of China, at some point in history. The name "Tu-ruk" appears in Chinese scripts before Gokturks. But you are correct that Gokturks are the first obviously Turkic civ.

Actually, I've been wondering what the heck was the ethnic distrubition of Anatolia before Manzikert.

A soup.

A ridiculous number of tribes passed through today's Turkey, so it is complicated.
First there were Hattis. Then Hittites came from the north. Then Phrygians, Galatians, Lydians, Greeks, Cimmerians (Conan’s tribe), Persians, Romans…In the east Urartians, Hurrians, Mitannis, Assyrians, Armenians… Finally Arabs and Turks… totally like vegetable soup.

Before Battle of Manzikert it would be Byzantine (i.e. mainly Greek) in the west; Armenian and Kurdish (they might have had a different tribe name then) in the east, with some Arabs (it was under the caliphate’s control afterall). And Turks were scattered in lesser numbers all over the place (yep, Turks came to Turkey a couple of centuries earlier than the coming of the Turkish rule, in the form of tribes that send their warriors as mercenaries, passed from the caliphate. If I remember correctly, there were some Turkic mercenaries on the Byzantine side in the battle, but they switched sides.).

Also remember that Manzikert was before the crusades were even thought of. So before Manzikert, it wouldn’t be weird to find Arab trade caravans in Byzantine Empire.


So for Abaddon, in 500 AD;

Turkic tribes were a scattered bunch in central Asia, with no unifying khan or khaqan. (So probably it would be a white area in a NES map). Religion was shamanism, most commonly a pantheon under the head deity named Gok-tengri (Sky-god). That’s probably one of the reason Turks would call their first empire “Sky-Turks” half a century later (also note that many Turkish flags have light blue in their flags, including Seljuk Empire, as well as today’s Kazakhstan, Azerbaijan, and Iraqi Turkmen). They had their own alphabet since long ago, but not a developed literature (you can’t carry scrolls and books when you are a nomad in harsh climate I suppose – survival resources take precedence). The written stuff that survived to our time are from tombs or monoliths, the most famous ones being the Orhun inscriptions (in today’s central Mongolia), which talk about history of some Gokturk rulers.

All of Anatolia (it seems weird to me to call it Turkey before Turks arrive there) was under Byzantine Empire, and a strong one at that (golden age perhaps). Almost all inhabitants were orthodox christians at this time (seven churches of Asia, mentioned in the Bible, are all in Turkey).

 

[ArmorPierce]

Would you consider me a fellow turk, as I am half Turkish and half hispanic born in America and speaks almost no Turkish (besides a few words)?

 

[knigh+]

Would you consider me a fellow turk, as I am half Turkish and half hispanic born in America and speaks almost no Turkish (besides a few words)?

If you say you are a fellow Turk (or half-Turk, as the case might be), who am I to object?

I'll guess you had elements of Turkish culture (even without the language) in your upbringing. My personal opinion is culture and upbringing matters more than bloodlines. (If we go there, who knows how much percent of the genes of Turkey's Turks are from Hittite or Greek ancestry? And I'm guessing your upbringing would be a mix of Turkish, Hispanic, and American cultural elements.

 

[Hadesspirit]

yes,ı m turkish.and ı m from samsun..
do you have play the world and conquest..
and do you know somewhere which sells them around your city?

 

[Mirc]

^ Wrong thread. Remember your thread in Civ3 General Discussions?

 

[The Tollan]

How do Turks view pre-Medieval Anatolia in terms of its relations to modern Turkey (and how do these groups relate to the Seljuk and Ottoman states). Do they consider some of the groups there as "predecessors" in any way? Some of the kingdoms of Anatolia were quite powerful during the times of the Roman Republic (in the stages shortly before it became an empire).

Do Turks in European Turkey view themselves as being part of Europe (geopolitically, culturally, etc)? If so, to what extent?

What do many Turks think of Russia's relations with the Central Asia states? What do they think of China's relations with the Central Asian states?

 

[Mirc]

How do Turks view pre-Medieval Anatolia in terms of its relations to modern Turkey (and the Seljuk and Ottoman states). Do they consider some of the groups there as "predecessors" in any way? Some of the kingdoms of Anatolia were quite powerful during the times of the Roman Republic (in the stages shortly before it became an empire).

I'm not sure if this has any relevance, but when I was in Ankara I saw a lot of things called Hittite: "Hitit hotel", "Hitit Restaurant", etc. But I guess it's just to attract tourists.

 

[knigh+]

How do Turks view pre-Medieval Anatolia in terms of its relations to modern Turkey (and how do these groups relate to the Seljuk and Ottoman states). Do they consider some of the groups there as "predecessors" in any way? Some of the kingdoms of Anatolia were quite powerful during the times of the Roman Republic (in the stages shortly before it became an empire).

Pre-Medieval Anatolian civs are actually given more importance than the medieval times.

The reason is wartime propaganda. When Greece advocated their invasion of Anatolia to their people by claiming to be successor of Byzantine Empire and all its territories, Turks replied by advertising the civilizations before the arrival of Greeks with Alexander. In 20th century occasional Greek nationalists never ceased to lay claims on Turkey, so Turkey kept underrepresenting any Greek factor in its history.

To be fair, this gave the Hittites the place their great empire deserved in history at least in somebody's history books. They were one of the top 3 civs of their time (with Egypt and China), first in history to give equal rights to women, and were in power for 5-6 centuries. Then there were Phrygians (King Midas with golden touch, the Gordian knot) and Lydians (first currency). In eastern Turkey, there was Urartu kingdom. There were Amazons, Cimmerians (Conan's tribe). Sure, Greeks settled in various coastal areas, but that did not constitute a civ.

Then comes the time of big foreign empires (Persia, Alexander, Roman) which are somewhat underportrayed in history classes. Then there is a thousand years of Byzantine Empire history covering most of the medieval age, which is summarized in a paragraph. Greek history books do the exact same thing to Ottoman Empire, so it is immaturity on both sides' nationalists I suppose.

I'm not sure if this has any relevance, but when I was in Ankara I saw a lot of things called Hittite: "Hitit hotel", "Hitit Restaurant", etc. But I guess it's just to attract tourists.

As described above, those are actually not just to attract tourists. Until the arrival of our "religious" morons in the last decade, Ankara's emblem was the Hittite sun disc

Do Turks in European Turkey view themselves as being part of Europe (geographically, culturally, etc)? If so, to what extent?

Let me answer your question this way: Turks in Asian part of Turkey view themselves as a part of Europe.

Spoiler relevant ranting :

Turks have been in Europe for several centuries. Hungarians and Bulgarians historically came from the steppes, some centuries before Turks, and their Europeanness is not disputed. If the difference is religion, Albania is a muslim country, nobody argues they aren't European. If the problem is purely geographical, at least a part of Turkey is in Europe, unlike a certain EU member which is entirely in Asia as far as geogrophical terminology is concerned. When I was walking around in Koln, the residential planning and architecture was identical to some residential parts of Ankara (well, to be fair, Ankara employed German city planners in 20s). I found the looks of Athens indistinguishable from some "Asian" Turkish cities.

I really don't understand the big deal about this, some 3000-4000 years ago some Greek geographer invented the word "Asia" meaning "the other side of Aegean Sea", and now we are branded by it and being alienated from the countries and peoples with whom we had the majority of our international relations for the past millenium, solely on the basis of this obsolete division.

If it is purely geographical, Europe shouldn't even count as a separate continent. If it is historical/cultural, the entire Mediterranean coast should be grouped together.

Ok, here is the important bit: Europe doesn't want Turkey because they think it is a Middle Eastern country with dark people of Middle-eastern looks. Middle East doesn't associate itself with Turkey because they view it as too much European, full of fair skinned colr-eyed people. The problem is Turkey is both. There is no visible difference between parts of Turkey and Europe, and there is no visible difference between parts of Turkey and Middle East. Turkey is a large country, in which you can see the gradual transition from Europe to Middle East as you travel.

Turks stated their aim loud and clear almost a century ago: Turkey will be modern and prosperous. Currently modern and prosperous, and Europeanness seem to coincide, so Turkey progresses toward Europe. As this is the long-time national aim, many Turks will even feel offended by the suggestion that they are not good enough for Europe.

What do many Turks think of Russia's relations with the Central Asia states? What do they think of China's relations with the Central Asian states?

Turks of Turkey view other Turkic states as brothers and a potential sphere of trade and influence. Nationalist people have ideas like making a Turkic union, which is somewhat difficult due to geography. But Turkish investors invest heavily in Central Asian countries, and there is cooperation in other areas (education, energy, military, etc) as well. I think Russia wants to keep them as their satellites under the CIS, but the only one they have any influence is Kazakhstan, which is big and developed enough to stand on its own without Russia or Turkey.

As for China, their largest province (Xinjiang-Uyghur) is historically Eastern Turkestan (The ex-Soviet countries were Western Turkestan). It used to be mostly Uyghurs (another Turkic people), and saw some push for independance in the last half century. China had a repopulation program in this time, increasing the Chinese population in Xinjiang from less than 10% to more than 40%. Well I guess most Turks disapprove Chinese actions concerning Uyghurs. But I don't think you would see Turks openly supporting Uyghur independence, while we are getting (rightfully) pissed off with foreign nations meddling with southeastern Turkey. On the other hand, if Uyghurs ever break off, Turks would welcome relations with another brother-nation.

 

[The Tollan]

An interesting reply. What you posted makes sense.

Another question: How often does the Turkish media report information about the Istanbul Stock Exchange?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Istanbul_Stock_Exchange

 

[Mirc]

Spoiler relevant ranting :

Turks have been in Europe for several centuries. Hungarians and Bulgarians historically came from the steppes, some centuries before Turks, and their Europeanness is not disputed. If the difference is religion, Albania is a muslim country, nobody argues they aren't European. If the problem is purely geographical, at least a part of Turkey is in Europe, unlike a certain EU member which is entirely in Asia as far as geogrophical terminology is concerned. When I was walking around in Koln, the residential planning and architecture was identical to some residential parts of Ankara (well, to be fair, Ankara employed German city planners in 20s). I found the looks of Athens indistinguishable from some "Asian" Turkish cities.

I really don't understand the big deal about this, some 3000-4000 years ago some Greek geographer invented the word "Asia" meaning "the other side of Aegean Sea", and now we are branded by it and being alienated from the countries and peoples with whom we had the majority of our international relations for the past millenium, solely on the basis of this obsolete division.

If it is purely geographical, Europe shouldn't even count as a separate continent. If it is historical/cultural, the entire Mediterranean coast should be grouped together.

Which country is that? Finland, Latvia, Lithuania, Romania, Bulgaria, Greece are the easternmost countries of the EU. Which one is not geographically European of those? Edit: Cyprus? Well, French Guinea is in South America, yet it is in the EU...


And I know about the Hittite sun disk. Thanks to my Turkish guide (Jasmine... or rather "yasemen" or something like that) I know a lot about Ankara's history.

 

[The Tollan]

He is talking about Cyprus.

Cyprus is located in Asia; however, it is a culturally European country.

This map indicates how the United Nations defines Europe:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Location-Europe-UNsubregions.png

 

[Mirc]

I realized that, and edited my post. (before you posted this )

 

[The Tollan]

I seem to be having a bit of internet lag here.

 

[Mirc]

No, I guess I edited it after you loaded the page but before you replied. Happens often.

 

[The Tollan]

More questions:

What types of computer games/video games are the most popular in Turkey (or seem to be played the most)? What seems to be a great percentage of the people who play Civilization games and the Europa Universalis games seem to come from outside the United States than with many other games (just from observation I have not checked any data).

Are there any particular video game consoles (Wii, Playstation 3, Xbox-360) that seem to be especially favored?

Also, is chess popular in Turkey?