Ask a Ukrainian

[Domen]

Declaration of Independence was the consequence of power struggle between France and UK.

Can you explain it more ??? How exactly did France contribute to that declaration?

BTW - the declaration was anyway just a formal confirmation. Because colonists rebelled already before that.

We can say that the Declaration of Independence of the USA in 1776 was similar to the Treaty of Hadiach in 1658.

Rebellion started already in 1648 but the idea that they should be "Rusyn Principality" was implemented ten years later, in 1658.

The main problem of modern-day Ukrainians is that this culture and language is not enough for the nation of their size.

Here we agree. But that's why Russia should take eastern part, Poland should take western part, and only central part should remain Ukraine...

 

[Snorrius]

Can you explain it more ??? How exactly did France contribute to that declaration?

To weaken British Empire France (a superpower of the day) sponsored and developed "liberation movement" providing them with money, resources and ideology. Louis XVI even got a title of "Liberator of America" .

 

[Aleksey_aka_al]

Whether you call them Ukrainians or Small Russians (which, by the way, was considered as offensive name by some Ukrainians)

Doesn't change the fact that the term is of Ukrainian/Malorussian origin, as well as the idea of post-Mongol integration of all the three branches of the Rus' people.

You'd be surprised but there're some Russians nowadays who get offended when they are called Russky.

 

[ywhtptgtfo]

How did Russians diverge from Poles, Czechs, and other West Slavs?

 

[Tahuti]

The declaration of independence in 1776 was only the CONSEQUENCE of a nation developing BEFORE that date.

British discrimination of their colonies contributed to Americans increasingly hating their ancestral country, and developing a distinct identity.

Actually, the USA was more like the EU at that point. It took the American Civil War before Americans identified more with America instead of their locality.

 

[Domen]

How did Russians diverge from Poles, Czechs, and other West Slavs?

Migrations, etc.:

Spoiler :

But also the fact that Poland and Russia emerged as two separate realms in Early Middle Ages.

It took the American Civil War before Americans identified more with America instead of their locality.

Or maybe their state? For example Virginians identified with Virginia, etc.

 

[Domen]

How did Russians diverge from Poles, Czechs, and other West Slavs?

Migrations, etc.

The peak of Slavic expansion was in the 1st half and mid of the 700s, when some of migrating Slavic groups went even as far as the Rhine River. During the 2nd half of the 700s and during the 800s, Frankish expansion already started to push the Slavs eastward. Especially after the conquest of Saxons (804).

See this thread:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=13366546&postcount=5

Map posted below shows westernmost Slavic groups around year 800 (lighter red boundary shows territories already by that time partially De-Slavicized, or never fully Slavic - it is not certain whether those territories were fully Slavic or always ethnically mixed - individual Slavic groups extended even more westward than that line, for example a few groups of migrating Slavs settled along the Rhine River, but of course they were never majority of population there):

 

[Aleksey_aka_al]

Geography. Then Orthodoxy and the common state.

 

[Tahuti]

Or maybe their state? For example Virginians identified with Virginia, etc.

Yes, more or less.

Funny how the extent of Slavs in present-day Germany almost perfectly fits with the former DDR!

 

[Domen]

Funny how the extent of Slavs in present-day Germany almost perfectly fits with the former DDR!

Indeed. And Slavic presence can also be found in names of localities in Eastern Germany. For example typical (but not the only ones) variants of toponyms of Slavic origin, are names with -ow/au, -in or -itz or -itze/itza suffixes, such as: Spandau, Krakow am See, Schwerin, Berlin, Chemnitz, Dönitz, Steglitz, etc.

For example below is a map indicating areas in Germany where you can find settlements with names ending with suffix -itz:

This one is in Poland (original Slavic name above, Germanized name below):

 

[bhsup]

Jesus, I was going to ask about Ukrainian feelings towards Germany before and during WWII. I see, however, this thread was polandized almost immediately Maybe the OP will try again someday...

 

[Tahuti]

Jesus, I was going to ask about Ukrainian feelings towards Germany before and during WWII. I see, however, this thread was polandized almost immediately Maybe the OP will try again someday...

Go ahead, I won't stop you.

 

[bhsup]

Well I don't know of LamaGT is even paying attention to this thread now, but okay, here's the question...

It's always been my understanding that Ukrainians almost universally welcomed the German invaders in WWII as saviors from Soviet oppression initially. It was only after being conquered and actually controlled by Germany that they realized they simply traded one bad situation for another.

1) Is that correct? 2) How did that initial view play with Uncle Joe after he reconquered them? 3) Is there any lingering animosity towards Germany to this day over WWII?

 

[Domen]

LamaGT will know better, but in my opinion it depends which Ukrainians and in which region. Ukrainians were the most numerous group among Nazi collaborators out of all East Slavic nations, but at the same time Ukrainians were also the 2nd most numerous ethnic group in the Red Army after Russians.

Anyway, active Ukrainian collaboration with Nazi Germany started already in early September of 1939.

Some para-military units consisting of Western Ukrainian volunteers even participated in the German invasion of Poland.

========================================

Bhsup - I recommend when you enter some thread, read it from first page to last, not from last to first:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=531005&page=2

By the way, Bhsup, in another thread you claimed that you - being a good New Worldean person - don't recognize the existence of ethnic groups and nations, unless they have the same name as the country where they live, and the same name as the name of citizenship of this country.

This means that you are being inconsistent, because how could Ukrainians welcome the German invaders, if Ukrainians did not exist ??? There was no Ukraine in 1941. There were only Soviets, who became Germans immediately after German administration replaced Soviet administration.

And in 1939 there were Soviets and Poles, not Ukrainians. If we accept your point of view.

 

[LamaGT]

Well I don't know of LamaGT is even paying attention to this thread now, but okay, here's the question...

It's always been my understanding that Ukrainians almost universally welcomed the German invaders in WWII as saviors from Soviet oppression initially. It was only after being conquered and actually controlled by Germany that they realized they simply traded one bad situation for another.

1) Is that correct? 2) How did that initial view play with Uncle Joe after he reconquered them? 3) Is there any lingering animosity towards Germany to this day over WWII?

Yeah sure I pay attention, I too would like to focus on Ukraine and not Poland or other Slavs.

Anyway, I didn't live at that time of course, but the general feeling I get is that the Western regions, those that were part of Poland before 1939 did welcome pretty much with open arms the Nazis. Eventually of course the Nazis started treating everyone horribly, as soon as the main army went on and the SS units came.
This didn't stop the formation of an SS unit made of volunteers from those regions, and there were also plenty of collaborators called "polizei".

These are the regions I'm talking about, Lvov, Lutsk and others. If you saw a map of the last parliamentary elections in Ukraine you'll see these are the regions that voted for Svoboda.

Spoiler :

On the other hand, most of the regions that were part of the Russian Empire before, opposed the Nazis more and more fiercely as they went east.
In terms of treatment, all the polizei were executed after the war, also USSR citizens who found themselves in Germany and other places were "encouraged" to come back, or they would be executed as traitors. There's also a generic disgust with these polizei, especially where I'm from.

There's no animosity to Germany that I know of.

 

[Domen]

There's no animosity to Germany that I know of.

Nations which don't have common borders usually don't feel animosity to each other.

BTW - one of Ukrainian paramilitary units which cooperated with Nazi Germany already in 1939, was Ukrainische Legion.

Commander of that Ukrainische Legion, was this guy - Roman Sushko:

In the link below, more info about this guy:

http://www.encyclopediaofukraine.com/display.asp?linkpath=pages\S\U\SushkoRoman.htm

Sushko, Roman [Сушко, Роман; Suško], b 9 March 1894 in Remeniv, Lviv county, Galicia, d 12 January 1944 in Lviv. Senior military Ukrainian National Republic officer and Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists (OUN) leader. Commanding a company of Ukrainian Sich Riflemen during the First World War, he was captured and interned by the Russians in 1916. He helped organize the Sich Riflemen in Kyiv, and as the force grew, he steadily rose from company, to battalion, regiment, and division (1919), commander and finally was promoted to colonel of the Army of the Ukrainian National Republic. In 1920 he commanded a brigade of the Sich Riflemen Division, and in 1921 he led a brigade in the Second Winter Campaign. He was a cofounder of the Ukrainian Military Organization and its home commander during 1927–31. He took part in setting up the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists and was active in its military department. He was military editor of Surma (1927–34). In 1939 he helped organize and commanded the Legion of Ukrainian Nationalists. He lived in Cracow in 1939–41, where he was OUN leader in the Generalgouvernement. When the internal split occurred within the OUN, he remained loyal to Col Andrii Melnyk. From 1941 he was active in the OUN (Melnyk faction) underground in Lviv, where he was killed by an unknown assassin.

 

[madviking]

Well I don't know of LamaGT is even paying attention to this thread now, but okay, here's the question...

It's always been my understanding that Ukrainians almost universally welcomed the German invaders in WWII as saviors from Soviet oppression initially. It was only after being conquered and actually controlled by Germany that they realized they simply traded one bad situation for another.

1) Is that correct? 2) How did that initial view play with Uncle Joe after he reconquered them? 3) Is there any lingering animosity towards Germany to this day over WWII?

This is the reason I asked about Stepan Bandera

 

[ywhtptgtfo]

Jesus, I was going to ask about Ukrainian feelings towards Germany before and during WWII. I see, however, this thread was polandized almost immediately Maybe the OP will try again someday...

Most of Ukraine was once part of Poland and Polonized. It only makes sense for a Ukrainian thread to be Polonized at some point as well.

 

[Domen]

The Commonwealth compared to modern borders:

Spoiler :

This is the reason I asked about Stepan Bandera

In this Wiki article about Bandera you linked, there is a list of all monuments, museums and streets of Bandera. I think someone should put all locations with these monuments / museums / streets on a map, so we can see where is the border between "Bandera Ukraine" and "Non-Bandera Ukraine".

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

Well I don't know of LamaGT is even paying attention to this thread now, but okay, here's the question...

It's always been my understanding that Ukrainians almost universally welcomed the German invaders in WWII as saviors from Soviet oppression initially. It was only after being conquered and actually controlled by Germany that they realized they simply traded one bad situation for another.

1) Is that correct? 2) How did that initial view play with Uncle Joe after he reconquered them?

This derives from the "USSR was another Russian Empire" and "The Soviets/Stalin hated Ukrainians and the Ukrainians hated them/him" narratives. Neither is true.

There were collaborators in every nation the Nazis invaded. And there were resistors. For every Stepan Bandera there were 10 forest brethren, partisans that took to the woods and sabotaged German operations for the duration of the war.