At what point did 'natural science' become the only 'science'?

Kyriakos

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The original term (in its greek version, tied to the future other euro developments) was Episteme, and was used not just for phenomena of the natural/material world, but also for orders such as math. Aristotle also uses it in this manner, despite Aristotle largely being the one who moves focus so drastically from the notional/math examinations of science, into the physical one, hence later on all notional/theoretical/bounded system thought is termed 'metaphysics' due to his books dealing with it following his books on physics (Τα Φυσικά).

By the time of the enlightenment the physics/material phenomena sciences were still termed natural science, and math was another realm of science.
What i am asking is when the view became that 'science' must be defined by experiment (and not by theorem where it applies, eg math), so that science now by definition (current definition anyway) only deals with external/material/experiment-reproducible or sense-tied observable phenomena :)
 
At the end of the 18th century or beginning of the 19th "natural science" aka "natural philosophy" was a branch of philosophy.

Then "natural philosophy" became irrelevant and "modern natural science" aka "natural science" aka "science" replaced it. Philosophy is happily still its own thing and is living a happy divorced life.

So basically the meaning of "natural science" changed from one thing to a completely different thing. But don't take my word for it.
 
I took a few courses that dealt with this material, including one class on the history of science, but sadly for that course it was when I got really sick so I missed the end.

Anyways, according to my understanding, the modern conception of science began developing during the Enlightenment and only realy took a foothold during the 18th and 19th century. You can sort of see this "transition" in Isaac Newton, who, despite being credited with a lot of scientific stuff, is also at the same time called the last mystic/magician/alchemist/etc. because he dabbled in stuff like astrology and alchemy.

Well, at least that's what I recall, I'm not an expert on the subject but whatever.
 
Oh. I thought this was going to be the standard physicist et al versus economist et al debate, wherein the physicists and chemists and such proclaim that no one but themselves is of actual significance. Don't mind me. Carry on.
 
What about computer science?

What about it? I've always considered it somewhere near the borderlands of engineering, which I don't consider disreputable myself. There may be some science purists in the crowd though, so we'll see if that brings up anything interesting. :popcorn:
 
No, a very important distinction must be made here. Natural sciences aim to relate reality to logical/mathematical structures. Computer science at heart is a about the properties of certain logical/mathematical structures themselves.
 
No, a very important distinction must be made here. Natural sciences aim to relate reality to logical/mathematical structures. Computer science at heart is a about the properties of certain logical/mathematical structures themselves.

Is there any means to use experiment in computer science? Eg to examine if a code does this or that in code dynamics, but would that be termed an experiment? (given it already is an event in a code, ie not in the natural world, but on the other hand you can have the code run so as to notice if your calculations were correct as to it).
Or is computer science not dealing that crucially/purely with code but more/also with the properties of the physical materials used to run the binary or other system the computers run in, and (eg) circuits behaving as electrical systems just made use of to run a code? (noting that my knowledge on this is very limited currently..).
 
Is there any means to use experiment in computer science? Eg to examine if a code does this or that in code dynamics, but would that be termed an experiment? (given it already is an event in a code, ie not in the natural world, but on the other hand you can have the code run so as to notice if your calculations were correct as to it).
You can do experiments in computer science, but you can also do them in mathematics. To measure Pi, you could try making a circle with string and measuring it, or you could estimate a value using the [wiki]Monte Carlo method[/wiki]

Or is computer science not dealing that crucially/purely with code but more/also with the properties of the physical materials used to run the binary or other system the computers run in, and (eg) circuits behaving as electrical systems just made use of to run a code? (noting that my knowledge on this is very limited currently..).
The physical systems that run code falls under computer/electronics/electrical engineering.
 
You can do experiments in computer science, but you can also do them in mathematics. To measure Pi, you could try making a circle with string and measuring it, or you could estimate a value using the [wiki]Monte Carlo method[/wiki]

Very interesting.. Thanks :)

Pi_30K.gif


In what way is this preferable in the case of pi and the above circle inscribed in a square, to geometry and calculus as that employed by Archimedes and others of that era?
(which, afaik, was calculus using trigonometry and also Archimedes' own lever calculations with which he cut more optimal parts of the empty surface and calculated the ratio more elegantly and without the strain of a simpler divison-by-triangles method):

Archie1small.png


(note that the JB line is standing for the lever there).
 
Well in the case of pi it isn't because we have good ways of figuring out the value of pi. The are other questions that we don't have good ways to figure out using formal methods (proofs), we can use experiments to find usable answers in those cases.
 
It appears to me to be a very Anglo-Saxon rather than general phenomena. At least I don't know of any other language than English to equate science with natural science. And I have the impression that this follows a certain very typically Anglo-Saxon tradition of mistrust towards the "softer" sides of sciences. As for instance reflected in Anglo-Saxon philosophy and its so-called analytical emphasize. The Anglo-Saxon world also is the one responsible for the great push of mathematics in sociology in the middle of the last century and I believe also for how mathematics have pretty much overtook economics (so that unless you got an equation [and a graph showing it] no one will listen to you)). They like it boxed up and straight-forward.
Which incidentally, coming to think of it, is also how American general culture at times looks to me. Strange.
 
It appears to me to be a very Anglo-Saxon rather than general phenomena. At least I don't know of any other language than English to equate science with natural science. And I have the impression that this follows a certain very typically Anglo-Saxon tradition of mistrust towards the "softer" sides of sciences. As for instance reflected in Anglo-Saxon philosophy and its so-called analytical emphasize. The Anglo-Saxon world also is the one responsible for the great push of mathematics in sociology in the middle of the last century and I believe also for how mathematics have pretty much overtook economics (so that unless you got an equation [and a graph showing it] no one will listen to you)). They like it boxed up and straight-forward.
Which incidentally, coming to think of it, is also how American general culture at times looks to me. Strange.

So the distinction is not there in a single word, in german?
It (generally) is not here either, with Episteme still the term for 'science'. Although math is included in the group, those usually are termed with an even worse epithet, translating to 'positive sciences' (as if anything else is crap or negative ^^ ).
Episteme, etymologically, seems to signify 'standing over the subject', and thus having a clear(er) view of it. Tied to the term exegesis, which literally means to lead (to a conclusion/examination etc) by standing somewhere out of the actual phenomenon you are speaking of.

Anyway, given that math (ie theorem-based math, as in geometry) originated apparently with Thales and his eponymous theorem, the episteme term was from the start applied to math. Socrates - useful to note- shows contempt for pre-occupation with less abstract systems of thought (math) and interest in specifically visible phenomena (he names Astronomy as being inherently lesser due to its focus on external phenomena, and proposes that a geometry of the 3d space is generalised for the student-philosophers in the Republic) *

*Republic, book 7, as a bit elaborating upon his allegory of the cave ;)

(i share the aversion to physics due to the core-focus there on external/material stuff which we always have to translate into our own system, while at least math is already our own system and we follow it to deeper examination of our own notions and mental abilities).
 
Michel Foucault has a good bit on it at the start of Society Must Be Defended, pointing out the precise connotations of designating something a 'science'. I'll dig it out later if anyone's interested.
 
Michel Foucault has a good bit on it at the start of Society Must Be Defended, pointing out the precise connotations of designating something a 'science'. I'll dig it out later if anyone's interested.

Start digging :scan:

Well, shaming using the term science/non-science, when it does not really apply, is one main facet of the lack of interest in both method and axioms/notions and what having axioms means anyway.

But personally i do not view natural sciences (eg physics, chemistry etc) to be as adapted to our own way of expanding our thinking, as math is, cause the latter is part of our thinking system from the start and has no point where it rests on ambiguous/point-of-view sense of other phenomena (eg material objects).
 
Michel Foucault has a good bit on it at the start of Society Must Be Defended, pointing out the precise connotations of designating something a 'science'. I'll dig it out later if anyone's interested.

Ooh, me
 
Oh. I thought this was going to be the standard physicist et al versus economist et al debate, wherein the physicists and chemists and such proclaim that no one but themselves is of actual significance. Don't mind me. Carry on.
Yeah, math is also a religion in which "math zealots" loudly proclaim that only their numbers are right and they never, ever work things out for themselves to see if what their math teachers say is true. :rolleyes:
 
Start digging :scan:

Well, shaming using the term science/non-science, when it does not really apply, is one main facet of the lack of interest in both method and axioms/notions and what having axioms means anyway.

But personally i do not view natural sciences (eg physics, chemistry etc) to be as adapted to our own way of expanding our thinking, as math is, cause the latter is part of our thinking system from the start and has no point where it rests on ambiguous/point-of-view sense of other phenomena (eg material objects).


Here's an abridgement of the first chapter which I think gets the point across. Emphasis mine.

Michel Foucault said:
In recent years we have often encountered … what might be called the insurrection of subjugated knowledges. When I say "subjugated knowledges," I mean two things. On the one hand, I am referring to historical contents that have been buried or masked in functional coherences or formal systematizations. I am also referring to a whole series of knowledges that have been disqualified as nonconceptual knowledges, as insufficiently elaborated knowledges: naive knowledges, hierarchically inferior knowledges, knowledges that are below the required level of erudition or scientificity. And it is thanks to the reappearance of these knowledges from below, of these unqualified or even disqualified knowledges, it is thanks to the reappearance of these knowledges: the knowledge of the psychiatrized, the patient, the nurse, the doctor, that is parallel to, marginal to, medical knowledge, the knowledge of the delinquent, what I would call, if you like, what people know (and this is by no means the same thing as common knowledge or common sense but, on the contrary, a particular knowledge, a knowledge that is local, regional, or differential, incapable of unanimity and which derives its power solely from the fact that it is different from all the knowledges that surround it), it is the reappearance of what people know at a local level, of these disqualified knowledges, that made the critique possible.

[My project, called ‘genealogies’ ] is a way of playing local, discontinuous, disqualified, or nonlegitimized knowledges off against the unitary theoretical instance that claims to be able to filter them, organize them into a hierarchy, organize them in the name of a true body of knowledge, in the name of the rights of a science that is in the hands of the few. Genealogies are therefore not positivistic returns to a form of science that is more attentive or more accurate. Genealogies are, quite specifically, antisciences. … This is above all, primarily, an insurrection against the centralizing power-effects that are bound up with the institutionalization and workings of any scientific discourse.

You know how many people have been asking themselves whether or not Marxism is a science for many years now, probably for more than a century. One might say that the same question has been asked, and is still being asked, of psychoanalysis or, worse still, of the semiology of literary texts. Genealogies' or genealogists' answer to the question "Is it a science or not?" is: "Turning Marxism, or psychoanalysis, or whatever else it is, into a science is precisely what we are criticizing you for. And if there is one objection to be made against Marxism, it's that it might well be a science."

To put it in … milder terms, let me say this: even before we know to what extent something like Marxism or psychoanalysis is analogous to a scientific practice in its day-to-day operations, in its rules of construction, in the concepts it uses, we should be asking the question, asking ourselves about the aspiration to power that is inherent in the claim to being a science. The question or questions that have to be asked are: "What types of knowledge are you trying to disqualify when you say that you are a science? What speaking subject, what discursive subject, what subject of experience and knowledge are you trying to minorize when you begin to say: 'I speak this discourse, I am speaking a scientific discourse, and I am a scientist.' What theoretico-political vanguard are you trying to put on the throne in order to detach it from all the massive, circulating, and discontinuous forms that knowledge can take?"

And I would say: "When I see you trying to prove that Marxism is a science, to tell the truth, I do not really see you trying to demonstrate once and for all that Marxism has a rational structure and that its propositions are therefore the products of verification procedures. I see you, first and foremost, doing something different. I see you connecting to Marxist discourse, and I see you assigning to those who speak that discourse the power-effects that the West has, ever since the Middle Ages, ascribed to a science and reserved for those who speak a scientific discourse."
 
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