August 2020 Developer Livestream Discussion

[agonistes]

Yeah, this is actually a change I've wanted - but in conjuction with giving free amenities to the AI (or the player) depending on difficult level. Hopefully they've done so, but I'm not sure.

Think you hit on an awesome way to impact difficulty levels here. Maybe deity should have cities start at -1 or -2 amenities.

 

[DogeEnricoDandolo]

Not all niches are created equal. "I want to play with fewer, more developed cities" is a game-defining decision that anyone can make regardless of Civ. "I want to levy city-state units for cheaper" isn't a game-defining playstyle and it's a bonus very few Civs can get meaninful mileage out of.

Remember the Food Market and how terrible that building was when it came out in RnF? 465 production for 3 food? Isn't food supply a game defining thing that anyone can make use of? In civ6 and how it is right now, playing tall still means at least 6-7 cities, and even in that situation, ancestral hall is still more useful, since it makes settlers cheaper and every city comes with a builder. The return on investment is clearly higher. If the audience chamber is the only tier 1 building, yeah, then i guess it is ok, cuz you don't have other choices. But when you do have other choices, it is important to look and compare. Back to the original example, who would build the food market and not the shopping mall? If it is the only choice, then it is weak but still comes to play because you don't have other options, but when you do, it is exponentially worse.

If you don't, then that's an issue with the game's fundamentals, not the AC itself.

Since we can't fix the entire game's fundamentals in a patch, how about we change 1 building so that it fits better instead? Just like how we can't change the fundamentals to make every civ want to levy units, how about we fix one building that helps it instead?

Maybe I was overthinking it, and all arena has to be is a +1 amenity zoo.

That is what I've been thinking for a long time. +1 Amenity when amenity is scarcer clearly doesn't cut it anymore.

 

[darkace77450]

The changes to amenities are fantastic, imho. It slows down ICS a bit, but still leaves room plenty of room for expansive empires. It also indirectly buffs ECs.

I also like TSs getting an easier adjacency bonus, which boosts Grant Opera. I can't help but feel Natural Wonders would have made more sense than ECs, but it's still a good change.

 

[agonistes]

EC change is brilliant (for me).

I put one in every city anyway, but now I’ll have to put a few more (first being colosseum one) early strategic ones down, and think more about aquatics placement vs. production/gold on coastal cities.

Any change that means more planning on my part I gladly welcome.

Dang.... I may need parks now, eh?

edit: I bet ai is more likely to build colo now too.

 

[hhhhhh]

Have they talked about science victory and the randomized tree? Will the Space Race projects tecs appear in order or they will be randomized as well?

There are four techs, one in atomic era, two in information era and one in future era, so only the two in information era can possibly be mixed. I'm not sure if they will. But even if they do it won't be a big problem.

 

[Lord Lakely]

Why is Scotland good? Now you need +5 amenity to be ecstatic.

Scotland's Happy Boost is every other Civ's exstatic boost now. Golf courses provide +2 Amenities. ECs, which you want to build anyway (and liberally) as Scotland, now grant adjacency to Theatre Squares.

Like, there are several small indirect bouses that make them better. They're not the only Civ that improves. Ottomans are better now as well. So are Brazil.

 

[Uberfrog]

It probably makes Venice as a Civ out. Portugal and The Byzantines are now top contenders for the European patch.

I mean, weren’t they always?

I wasn’t too enthused about this patch but the amenity changes sound interesting...

 

[hhhhhh]

I also like TSs getting an easier adjacency bonus, which boosts Grant Opera.

Yeah a EC - TS - TS - Gov. Plaza diamond will now give you a pair of +4 TS (+5 if you can put one more district next to TS), which is awesome.

 

[GrumboMumbo]

A buff to the Audience Chamber is far more needed than the other GovPlaza changes. I guess maybe they think that the amenity changes make the audience chamber more attractive now?? It took me a while to realise the power of the Ancestral Hall, it leaves Audience Chamber in the dust everytime, it's not even close.

 

[nzcamel]

I mean, weren’t they always?

This.

 

[Atlas627]

Oh sweet, I love when things I mod into the game get added to the official game! Time to remove those now-redundant Theater Square adjacencies from Entertainment Complexes and Water Parks.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I mean, weren’t they always?

I think it makes it extremely unlikely that a unified Italy civ will get in as a dark horse now though.

 

[leandrombraz]

I'm not sure what people want from the Audience Chamber. It does precisely what it's supposed to do. It fills a niche, but that doesn't mean it does so poorly.

Considering that, if you want to get the most of it, you need to spread out your governor titles to get every governor, delaying you from investing more in the same governor, the Audience Chamber could at least give 2 governor titles instead of 1 when you build it, so you can benefit from it early without hurting yourself. Alternatively, it could give +1 amenity or +1 housing (or both) for every title invested on that governor, on top of the housing/amenity you already get.

 

[ggalindo001]

Something that maybe I am over-reading into.

About 34 minutes into the youtube Anton was talking about the AI's ability to handle the new tech trees.

He said, our AI person (or something to that effect), then said our LEAD AI person.

I think for a long time we knew they only had 1 person working on AI - maybe now they have someone else, and given the recent improvements in the AI, someone that is slowly getting this turned around.

he did say the LEAD AI person had a RTS background and contemplated those concepts, etc.

I think there is a general consensus that the quality of the AI is improving, and that this route allows them to work "under the hood" at improving the AI through feature releases.

I hope I am onto something......

 

[Victoria]

Oh my, faster loyalty flips through pillaging, will the Eleanor twins be social distancing at the pub tonight? I doubt it.

 

[8housesofelixir]

ECs are the tax on the wide empire, which is fine.

That's a beautiful and very realistic expression. There is a reason why Athenians introduced the Theoric Fund and why Romans introduced the Ludi.


The problem with Audience Chamber is that it's one of the few buildings in this game with a negative effect and the positive effects are not super strong that you can ignore the negative side. I am aware -2 loyalty is not that harmful, but +1 amenity isn't really enough either; move a governor will let you lost that amenity is also annoying. Currently if one want to play tall Ancestor Hall is still better.

And it's not like the game can only recognize an established governor in order to let bonuses up and running.

 

[acluewithout]

Removing the free amenity per City seems like a good change. Feels a bit like Firaxis just took the training wheels off the game.

Amenities is probably not a big change overall - one luxe covers four cities and there are lots of early amenities from cards. Early impact is probably just not trading your first amenity as the default and maybe having to slot cards and or garrison units. Slight buff for Classical Republic, Autocracy and some Commercial City States. Might end up purchasing or trading amenities from / with the AI, but let’s see.

Revolt changes sound like a tweak that’s come out of play-testing, so ok by me.

Gov Plaza Building changes are fine. I thought the buildings were already ok, but the small buffs they’ve made are sensible. Audience Chamber is totally fine for what it is, and doesn’t really need a buff. If anything, it’s free amenities just made it more valuable.

Don’t know about the EC/TD adjacencies. Not a huge fan of adjacencies that aren’t map dependent. But I’m guessing this is another change that’s come out of play tests, so guess we’ll see how it goes.

I was really hoping Buildings and Rationalism-type cards would get a solid balance pass, so bit disappointing that didn’t happen. See what happens next time.

Interested to see the Patch Notes, to find out if anything else has changed.

Overall, looks like a good update, particularly with the free Game Mode etc. Good work Firaxis!

ECs are the tax on the wide empire, which is fine.

Bingo.

I suspect we may see more changes to amenities (including EC) after this change, as FXS and players get a feel for the new dynamic.

pillaging

Oh my, yes.

As someone else said, AI may need some free amenities on higher difficulties, although I think the AI usually prioritises amenity and housing cards already so we’ll see.

 

[reddishrecue]

The new unrevealed technologies in the tech tree makes the game feel a lot more realistic since in real life you don't know what you're going to research and discover next. Even in history, no one really knew what to research next. I also liked the EC/ TD culture bonuses from being next to each other. Thank you Firaxis!

 

[UWHabs]

That's a beautiful and very realistic expression. There is a reason why Athenians introduced the Theoric Fund and why Romans introduced the Ludi.


The problem with Audience Chamber is that it's one of the few buildings in this game with a negative effect and the positive effects are not super strong that you can ignore the negative side. I am aware -2 loyalty is not that harmful, but +1 amenity isn't really enough either; move a governor will let you lost that amenity is also annoying. Currently if one want to play tall Ancestor Hall is still better.

And it's not like the game can only recognize an established governor in order to let bonuses up and running.

Yeah, I mean, the Audience Chamber has a niche if you just plan to turtle with your core 5-6 cities, but the problem is that the negative means if you're not turtling for that, it it just really hard to balance.

Like, if the bonus was simply +1 amenity and +3 housing to cities with governors, with no negative portion, it'd be tempting enough that I would slot it more often, but even at that, it's not like it would be so powerful that I would take it all the time.

 

[Atlas627]

The -2 Loyalty on the Audience Chamber is quite inconsequential. The reason why it is a Tall building is that only so many cities can have Governors in them in the first place, so only so many cities get the buff. The buff just needs to be better.