Auric alignment discussion

[Kranden]

I think Auric, once he became the leader of the Illians is a Lawful Evil leader in his human mind and extremely chaotic evil in whatever shape Mulcorn influences him.

In his human side he doesn't want to see his troops die needlessly like with the frost giant killing his own men, not because he cares about them but because he requires good morale and dedication for his cause, on the other hand he would sacrifice every single one as long as it leads to his ascension as the new god of winter and ruler of the world.

He is definitely not simply a black and white bad guy.

 

[Tricit]

I don't think Basium even fits in Kael's vision of what good is in FfH. Kael says that a good leader is one who sacrifices themself for their people. Basium is willing to sacrifice -everything- in order to stop evil. He sees the mortal realm as irrelevent, but from the perspective of anyone on Erebus, the mortal realm is everything. From their perspective, basium is sacrificing everything to battle Hyborem.

Think of it this way. The Mortal realm is the home of Humans. Maybe they go to a heaven, but that doesn't stop them from coming back, or visiting. If Erebus is destroyed in the process of ending evil, then humans lose their home. They will have a place to go, sure. Regardless of that, I would see it as evil that my home is destroyed when there are other obvious courses of action; having a little more patience is one.

 

[hbar]

Basium does care, but he sees the Infernals as a much larger threat than the rest of Erebus. So much of a threat that little things like happiness over a few brief generations are nothing compared to the risk of Erebus as a newly annexed section of Hell for all eternity.

Basium is willing to fight this war for Erebus, alone if needed, and in the end of the scenarios when Hyborem is defeated he marches off into hell to continue fighting. He makes personal sacrifice, maybe more than anyone else in FfH.

In our world, fanatic hatred of anything is a bad because threats aren't simply black or white. In FfH Basium's response to the Infernals may be the most logical.

Basium doesn't have a lot of respect for humans. They are weak and fleeting (which is probably valid from his perspective) and he is quick to turn on those that aren't adamantly and perfectly opposed to the Infernals. Fanatical, yes. Reasonable, maybe.

Pretty sure Kael has taken this into account

 

[Tricit]

Yes, but my point is that makes Basium far from the top of the list of 'good'.

Well he's either stupid and good, or barely good and intelligent (like Thessa or Amelancheir). The wiki suggests Sabathiel always knows the correct answer every time, and he isn't behaving quite the same way Basium is. He sees other threats that come from Erebus which he realizes are just as significant, and patience to deal with all threats. This doesn't mean I feel the Bannor (or Sabathiel) are the 'most good' either. I'll be straight up with believing the Elohim are. However, I see them as pointing in the right direction given logic provided by Sabathiel's wiki entry.''

Here, let me help you see my logic. So here we have Kael's opinion that Basium 'might be the most good'. This could be true, but only through intention. If it is so, in my opinion, it would mean he is also of extraordinarily low intelligence for an Angel.

I imagine a first circle; within it I see a picture of Basium. At first it should have a check in it because Basium is supposed to be the most good. . . but he's an angel, so he can't possibly be this dumb and this good! So as wild as my brain is, all sorts of different circles with different leader's faces appear around him (mainly all the good leaders and a few neutral ones). The arrow is wildly spinning around in my brain looking for the more good leaders. After reading Sabathiel's wiki entry, I realize Sabathiel should have all the right answers. The arrow points to Sabathiel on my next destination of understanding which leader is in fact most good. I come to realize that Sabathiel aims to protect only the Bannor people, though. So I figure while that is 'very good', it's probably not the 'most good'. So then I ask myself, who would want to protect everyone?

There are 2 obvious answers: The Mercurians or The Elohim. The Mercurians wanting to protect everyone is debatable, though. Losing your home (even after death and *ascension*) is an incredibly bad thing. Likewise, having forced the loss of someone's home in order to protect; it or the people within it?; this is thus a bad act. This is especially so when some within that home feel as though they could halt armageddon AND thwart the plans of the Infernals, possibly eternally.

So we can suggest Basium is not exactly on of the top 5 good, but quite intelligent. Maybe we can suggest that he is perhaps the most good, but not intelligent. Or we can take a completely underhanded definition of good and suggest that destroying humanity's home in the process of protecting humanity's home is 'good' and that he is in fact also intelligent.

Take your pick.

If he ends up killing all good humans in the process and using them for war, then they are certainly lost. If they had simply died normally on Erebus to the struggle and ascended to whatever heaven (and then possibly to the One); they would be souls in existance still.

I see basium as borderline good; that or borderline ********.

 

[BasilAbdef]

"Good" and "evil" are mostly meaningless terms which depend entirely on perspective and definition. I seem to recall Kael saying before that "evil" in the Erebus universe simply denotes the gods (and their servants/followers) who rebelled against the One. "Good" denotes those gods who chose to actively battle against them, and "neutral" is any god that did not rebel but also did not actively fight against those that did.

Attempting to superimpose the morality of our world (which is up for debate anyway, since no two people will agree on precisely what is "moral") upon Erebus can only be described as an exercise in futility.

 

[hbar]

The closest I can come to recreating the moral decision Basium makes is this:

1987 cold war, the US gets indisputable intelligence that the Soviet Union is planning on launching its entire stockpile at targets around the globe. The Soviets feel that if they can't win the cold war, they'll destroy the world out of spite. Two of the president's top advisors have competing strategies:

General William "Billy" Basium insists that we send in our military; a full out non-nuclear conventional strike. Losses will be enormous, and the casualty rate will be in the tens, if not hundreds of millions, but the stakes are too high to wait for Russian cooperation.

Secretary of State Charles "Elvis" Elohim encourages a diplomatic approach - if we just explain to the Russians that losing isn't so bad, and that second place is a noble outcome, then perhaps Vladimof Hyborem will come to his senses and disarm his nukes.

Agares (and by extension, Hyborem) does not just want to rule Erebus and make people unhappy. He wants The One to undo creation and negate existence. That is an end that justfies some pretty ugly means.

 

[Kranden]

Sabathiel is trying to do the most good while preserving humanity in all its glory while Basium is concerned with one single thing. Killing every single demon with his bare hands and nothing less. Basium's goal is to be met with every single resource he has available and it matters little to him how many mortals have to die for his righteous goals. Some of humanity being wiped out is a small price to pay to let the Infernals overrun Erebus. I believe Basium is intelligent when it comes to military matters but he cares little for compassion as it is a weakness of humans and why they will never stop the Infernals on their own. Any humans who wish to join his cause are tools to him and nothing less, he appreciates more soldiers for his wars but that is all, them dying is only frustrating to him in the sense that he has less to fight the Infernals with.

Although as an interesting thought lets say every infernal was wiped out, what would Basium do next? I have a feeling he would turn on every human who he deemed unworthy and evil and probably those too cowardly to support his goals. Without evil to fight he himself would turn evil and pass judgement on all of man. Eventually none would live up to his high standards and humanity would rebel against him. Thus he would destroy everything or they would destroy him. He is is own worst enemy.

 

[Lone Wolf]

Although as an interesting thought lets say every infernal was wiped out, what would Basium do next?

I bet it'd be turning on Octopus Overlords, then on the Ljosalfar and Fellowship of Leaves in general (he hates Sucellus, one of their patron deities), then on every other Evil civ, then he'd become mad from all the destruction and start to attempt to kill every living being on Erebus as being potentially corruptible.

 

[Valkrionn]

Honestly, I think a far more likely outcome (this IS Dark Fantasy, after all) would be for Basium to fail. To end up in Camulos' hell, when Arawn refuses to allow him to return. After sufficient time here, I think in the end, like all residents of Camulos' hell, Basium would attempt to claim the Precept of Chaos... If he succeeds, he'd have a new tool to renew his war on demons, which he'd likely have kept up during his stay in Hell.

Granted, original idea there was Magister's, but I like it.

 

[Avahz Darkwood]

Although as an interesting thought lets say every infernal was wiped out, what would Basium do next?

Well that outcome has already been shown in the scenarios. He just follows them to Hell to continue the fight. Read his ending and you get a better idea of how good he really is.

 

[Elder Methyl]

The closest I can come to recreating the moral decision Basium makes is this:

1987 cold war, the US gets indisputable intelligence that the Soviet Union is planning on launching its entire stockpile at targets around the globe. The Soviets feel that if they can't win the cold war, they'll destroy the world out of spite. Two of the president's top advisors have competing strategies:

General William "Billy" Basium insists that we send in our military; a full out non-nuclear conventional strike. Losses will be enormous, and the casualty rate will be in the tens, if not hundreds of millions, but the stakes are too high to wait for Russian cooperation.

Secretary of State Charles "Elvis" Elohim encourages a diplomatic approach - if we just explain to the Russians that losing isn't so bad, and that second place is a noble outcome, then perhaps Vladimof Hyborem will come to his senses and disarm his nukes.

Agares (and by extension, Hyborem) does not just want to rule Erebus and make people unhappy. He wants The One to undo creation and negate existence. That is an end that justfies some pretty ugly means.

According to the scenarios, Enion's stance is to bunker down and preserve the knowledge of the ages, in order to rebuild once the danger has passed. Ethne, however, has Valoel build the Mercurian Gate and unleash Basium in order to do what you just advocated.

Spoiler :

Wages of Sin, Elohim Intro

Einion tapped his staff sharply on the ground, making an echo through the stone hall. "You are too coy child. I had to find out from Valoel, after he had already begun construction. Surely some madness has gripped you!"

"Have you another plan? If so, I have not heard it. Os-Gabella has refused our ambassadors, and the Infernal reception was far worse. The Winter Queen has promised to bring peace to the forests, even as the people of Evermore are sold as slaves."

"The lands that we have lost are unimportant. We can have the peace to continue our mission of preservation if we realize what is important. In these times of war, it is all the more important that we seek to save the knowledge that has been gained since the dawn of the Age. We have no need of these barbaric 'heavenly' warriors! As it was written in the times of our ancestors, 'Let virtue be your spear and faith your shield.'"

Ethne turned her gaze around the room filled with burned pilgrims and their maimed defenders. "Which of these lacked virtue, then, and which lacked faith?"

Einion was silent a moment, but not long enough for Ethne to think she swayed him. "A great many more will be so afflicted, and due to your actions our hands will be awash in the blood of the next victims. What you do here you do without my blessing. Oh great Sirona, why have I lived so long to see us come to this?"

Ethne bowed her head respectfully as Einion retreated, then said softly, "If you live any longer, honored friend, it will be due to the warriors of heaven you so deplore."

The gate was built. It was everything Einion feared and everything Ethne prayed

Spoiler :

Wages of Sin, Elohim Ending

Ethne stood again in the infirmary. People of many nations lay around her: Elven warriors, Sheaim prisoners of war, Malakim soldiers, religious pilgrims from around the world. Many, many more had passed through here since she had decided to deviate from the Elohim philosophy. A terror had been unleashed, and no doubt her name would be cursed by widows and orphans as Basium took his armies into all lands where the Ashen Veil reached. But her people had been saved, as had a core remnant of her allies. She had regrets, but life presented no paths free of regrets, and her Mercurian alliance was a choice she would again make.

"It will not be too much longer, Tuatha," she said to the monk who had been her shadow in the years of the war of Tempus Mor."Yes, my liege, there have been many fewer injured of our forces in the last months. And even fewer of the enemy killed or injured. Reports from Decius have been positive on his front as well, and the Ljosalfar refugees are eager to return."

These are incomplete quotations, of course.

Edit: To adress another argument, it is still immoral to kill innocents even if there is an afterlife for good people, as most religions preach that no matter how many souls evil gets, goodness will still win out in the end.