Ayn Rand, Objectivism, Atlas Shrugged, et al.

[Flying Pig]

What would the opportunities would they have had during that time? They still weren't considered the same as whites so since whites still had control over them what opportunities did they have to be like the rest of America?

I think you've just made an argument for reinstituting slavery in Missouri.

 

[Traitorfish]

Yes... and no. Socially and maybe even economically it would have been easier to do at the time of the Revolution, but if they had tried there is a very real chance that the US would have never gotten off the ground at all, since the southern states would have simply refused to join the union. My understanding has been that the idea of abolishing slavery was discussed at the time, but the founding fathers couldn't see a way to do it without screwing the southern states and causing them to walk away from the whole enterprise, so they kicked the problem down the road.

Oh, granted. Problem is, that's exactly how things worked out anyway, so we're not comparing [that happening] to [that not happening], we're comparing [that maybe happening] to [that definitely happening]. It's not a given that abolition in the late-18th century would have been as arduous, involved as much violence or had as long-lasting repercussions as abolition in the mid-19th century. Or at any rate, and this is really the point I'm getting at, not so evident that it offers much defence against the participation of many "Founding Fathers" in an institution which I can hope we all agree was an unqualified evil.

edit: Except Classical Hero, it appears, who in the spirit of true Christian charity argues that slavery was in fact a positive good, because: Classical Hero.

 

[Old Hippy]

What would the opportunities would they have had during that time? They still weren't considered the same as whites so since whites still had control over them what opportunities did they have to be like the rest of America?

well their is that draft declaration that said "all white men are etc ect," so Americans did take the opportunity to say'' all men are etc etc,"

 

[Wolfbeckett]

Oh, granted. Problem is, that's exactly how things worked out anyway, so we're not comparing [that happening] to [that not happening], we're comparing [that maybe happening] to [that definitely happening]. It's not a given that abolition in the late-18th century would have been as arduous, involved as much violence or had as long-lasting repercussions as abolition in the mid-19th century. Or at any rate, and this is really the point I'm getting at, not so evident that it offers much defence against the participation of many "Founding Fathers" in an institution which I can hope we all agree was an unqualified evil.

edit: Except Classical Hero, it appears, who in the spirit of true Christian charity argues that slavery was in fact a positive good, because: Classical Hero.

Yeah I mean I'm not really trying to defend their decision not to outlaw it right away. They were making tough decision during some trying times and I don't know enough details to judge whether they made a right one or a wrong one. Slavery is reprehensible, so my gut reaction of course is to say they should have outlawed it right away, but then there's another part of my brain that wonders if any of us (us meaning me and my fellow Americans) would be better off in that scenario. I can easily envision a scenario where they outlaw slavery right away, the US doesn't form at all as a result, and the whole place ends up a collection of third world backwaters, like Detroit but over the whole country. So I won't rush to defend their decision, but I aint gonna rush to condemn it either since nobody can say what the results of doing it differently would be.

 

[Cutlass]

So how to tell which of their actions represents TRVE KVLT LIBERALISM and which represents rich white guys being rich white guys?

And there's the trick: Why should we accept the Founding Fathers as the final say on what we do now, 200 years after they'd all died, when a) there's a lot of misunderstanding of what they actually did, and b) there's a lot of disagreement about what they actually did.

 

[Gori the Grey]

We shouldn't. They didn't want us to! Their deepest genius was in devising a governmental system that could change, as it would inevitably be called on to do.

 

[Hygro]

What would the opportunities would they have had during that time? They still weren't considered the same as whites so since whites still had control over them what opportunities did they have to be like the rest of America?

Well, the same as any free man being discriminated against. You make some opportunities for yourself and you organize and use movements and politics to make more opportunities. This country would have been sooooo much better off.