Ayn Rand, Objectivism, Atlas Shrugged, et al.

This is probably more a question for Traitorfish, but what precisely differentiates a 'proto-state' from just a state? At what point to chiefdoms and informal plutocracies actually become states?
Bureaucracy is usually taken as pretty central, although sometimes that involves defining states as "bureaucratic polities", so it risks a little circularity. But bureaucracy does seem to be important in that bureaucracies function as more-or-less discrete systems, where even the largest and most centralised paramount chiefdoms do not, so allow the emergence of more-or-less discrete political entities. Bureaucracies entail certain shared logics and perspectives which allow "the state" to function as an at least occasionally-coherent actor, insofar as individuals subsume themselves into this state-perspective, while chiefdoms and petty-monarchies always function as a host of disparate actors acting with greater or less coordination.
 
I'd call that flagrant revisionism. If you could go back in time and suggest such an idea to most historical rulers I suspect they'd think you were crazy.

I didn't even think this was controversial. What is your reason for supposing that this isn't the case? The whole idea of personal fiefdoms already demonstrates it...
 
I didn't even think this was controversial. What is your reason for supposing that this isn't the case? The whole idea of personal fiefdoms already shows demonstrates it...

Perhaps just a matter of language and framing?
 
I do think a totally free market society will lead to a better society than can be had otherwise.

How can you think that, though? Every single case study that's related to the above will tell you the exact opposite of what you conclude.

So what exactly are you basing this conclusion on?

. It's more of a moral stance than a viable economic system, though some libertarians like to think it's a viable economic system. That it would outperform modern systems economically is a bit of a stretch given how many market failures it cannot handle plus the government's history of investment in gamechanging technologies (nuclear, Internet, satellite, etc.). It's more of a moral stance " you should not be able to to Force me to pay for stuff I don wanna pay for". In many ways, it's reasonable. It's just not viable

That's what I've pretty much assumed - that it is a "feel good" ideology, rather than a system that can actually be implemented.

But every single libertarian I've ever talked to seems to think that it will actually work, rather than it being a belief or an ideology, not relatable to the real world at all. So there's a disconnect there somewhere.

To be fair, let us keep in mind that libertarians are a spectrum, not a point. But that is a distinction sometimes hard to keep in mind because most of the libertarians people actually hear from are from points that either don't intersect the real world, or do so only in the worst possible way.

But there are many not like that as well. They just aren't nearly as vocal about what they stand for.

My only exposure to libertarians are the libertarians I've seen or heard talk in the media. Usually online, but on TV as well.. In interviews, etc. This includes libertarian political leaders.

All of them seem to have similar basic beliefs. What sort of beliefs might a non-vocal libertarian have that differ from say.. Ron Paul?

I'm open to the idea that non-crazy libertarianism exists, but so far I haven't seen any hints of it anywhere.
 
liberalism aint a feel good ideology?

thats all it is, something triggers the injustice emotion and the liberal state charges in to fix the world

and no case studies on free markets?

thats how people have lived for millennia and still do in various parts of the world
 
I'm open to the idea that non-crazy libertarianism exists, but so far I haven't seen any hints of it anywhere.
They exist, but they're generally on the left, so their rhetoric and activism tends to be concerned with things like workers' rights or environmentalism, rather than demonising welfare recipients and bemoaning the lack of a gold standard.

Right-libertarians are visible not so much because they represent libertarianism generally, but because they're in the awkward position of doing the dirty work of an establishment they claim to oppose, which prompts them to be much more vocal about their identification as libertarians. Left-libertarians will have more robust anti-establishment credentials and so don't tend to insist so loudly on the distinctions between them and their more state-orientated allies.

(There's also the recent popularity of paper-thin "libertarianism" among the American far-right, who find that their obnoxious brew of racism, Evangelical Christianity and Reaganomics is made more palatable, at least to themselves, if they can frame it as the true love of liberty. See: Ron Paul, Glen Beck, Alex Jones, etc.)
 
My only exposure to libertarians are the libertarians I've seen or heard talk in the media. Usually online, but on TV as well.. In interviews, etc. This includes libertarian political leaders.

All of them seem to have similar basic beliefs. What sort of beliefs might a non-vocal libertarian have that differ from say.. Ron Paul?

I'm open to the idea that non-crazy libertarianism exists, but so far I haven't seen any hints of it anywhere.



The non-crazy ones, I'll violate protocol here a bit and name names, IglooDude, El_Mac, Integral, Jericho_Hill, what they have in common, to varying degree, is that they believe that people should be left alone to make as many of the decisions which effect their lives as possible. That is, if what they do does not harm others, then there shouldn't be anyone telling them that they can't do it. But, to the extent that I can claim to understand these people's positions well enough to speak for them, they all recognize that there are limits to this. It is not an absolute either-or. It is not all 'liberty' or all 'statist'. But rather there is in fact a place where government is necessary for the system to work. Now these people may have varying opinions concerning where they think government should step in, and what government should do, but they recognize the necessity of government. At least in the terms of a 'necessary evil'. Whereas at the extreme, the ones you typically here from the most, they would claim that government is always an 'unnecessary evil'.
 
I don't think that many right-libertarians think that government is an unnecessary evil, for all their overblown rhetoric. A few anarcho-capitalists will bite the bullet, but most libertarians are pretty intent on preserving the parts of the government which they imagine to benefit them personally, usually the cops, the jails and the courts. Look at GhostWriter: he howled his proclamations as anti-statism from the rooftops, but still regarded the ability of the state to execute people for engaging in methods of birth control he personally disproved of as the absolute condition of all civilised society- a far more fundamentally statist attitude than any progressive.
 
The non-crazy ones, I'll violate protocol here a bit and name names, IglooDude, El_Mac, Integral, Jericho_Hill, what they have in common, to varying degree, is that they believe that people should be left alone to make as many of the decisions which effect their lives as possible. That is, if what they do does not harm others, then there shouldn't be anyone telling them that they can't do it. But, to the extent that I can claim to understand these people's positions well enough to speak for them, they all recognize that there are limits to this. It is not an absolute either-or. It is not all 'liberty' or all 'statist'. But rather there is in fact a place where government is necessary for the system to work. Now these people may have varying opinions concerning where they think government should step in, and what government should do, but they recognize the necessity of government. At least in the terms of a 'necessary evil'. Whereas at the extreme, the ones you typically here from the most, they would claim that government is always an 'unnecessary evil'.

In point of fact, almost all of the libertarians I've met fall into that sane category. Most of the ones you see on TV don't because, let's face it, reasoned non-extremist positions don't regularly get TV coverage because there's no ratings in it. Judging all libertarians by the standard of the crazies on TV is no different than saying all republicans are tea-party psychos.

Edit: Almost all of the ones I've met in real life. The Internet brings all the crazy to the yard so I'm not counting people I only know online.
 
I'm sorry, I didn't realize that there were so many libertarians here.

Now I feel like a bit of a jerk calling them all crazy. I don't even remember any of their opinions ever seeming that crazy, at least from the list of the "sane libertarians" given above.

they believe that people should be left alone to make as many of the decisions which effect their lives as possible.

See, I believe the exact same thing. And out of all those people listed, I don't really seem to disagree on too many subjects with.. Or maybe I'm just not paying enough attention.

What I disagree with is where you draw the line. A lot of libertarians seem to support freedom and liberty blindly - it doesn't matter to them what the outcome is, as long as liberty is gained.

Is that a minority view for libertarians, or is that a mainstream libertarian sort of thought? Because that's the main thing I think that makes libertarianism a dangerous ideology.

I'm willing to grant people their liberties and freedoms, and that's a good starting point in any discussion: let this person do this thing! Why not. .. As long as it's actually a good idea to do it - in terms of the reprecussions on society at large. If it's a negative enough effect, I will turn around and say that this particular liberty is not worth it - while it seems to me that many libertarians will fight for the side of liberty just because their ideology demands it.

To me the most important thing is the effect of what you're going to do. How is it going to affect everyone involved? If it's good, then we should allow it. If it only benefits the person who's doing it, and everyone else ends up losing out, then nope, I can't support it. Obviously things have to be looked at on a case by case basis, things are usually more complicated and a cookie cutter solution will never work out.. but essentially that's the approach.

That's how I look at the world.. Freedom and liberty are important to me, I used to live under a communist regime where the freedoms of movement and expression were suppressed. I'm just not fanatical about it, and every time I hear libertarianism espoused as a valid ideology, it seems to be applied in a fanatical "let's forget the facts on the ground and only focus on the ideology" type manner.

Having thought it over I guess it seems that I probably agree with "the people on the list" about a lot of stuff (I think), because they lean towards the left.. but it seems that we'll probably disagree on certain items, if my assessment of libertarianism is correct. If it isn't, maybe I'm just against right-wing libertarianism? I don't really know. All I know is that from what I have seen libertarianism never leads to anything good. I'm willing to have my mind changed, but I'm actually someone who doesn't mind paying a bit more in taxes in return for good healthcare and other services, as much as I might shake my fist at the government from time to time, so it seems that I just disagree with the ideology on a very fundamental level. Most people who take up the ideology seem to just be people who don't like to pay taxes and who think the government is inefficient.. I can definitely see the appeal.. It just seems to be taken to a rather extreme end.
 
I'm sorry, I didn't realize that there were so many libertarians here.

Now I feel like a bit of a jerk calling them all crazy. I don't even remember any of their opinions ever seeming that crazy, at least from the list of the "sane libertarians" given above.



See, I believe the exact same thing. And out of all those people listed, I don't really seem to disagree on too many subjects with.. Or maybe I'm just not paying enough attention.

What I disagree with is where you draw the line. A lot of libertarians seem to support freedom and liberty blindly - it doesn't matter to them what the outcome is, as long as liberty is gained.

Is that a minority view for libertarians, or is that a mainstream libertarian sort of thought? Because that's the main thing I think that makes libertarianism a dangerous ideology.

I'm willing to grant people their liberties and freedoms, and that's a good starting point in any discussion: let this person do this thing! Why not. .. As long as it's actually a good idea to do it - in terms of the reprecussions on society at large. If it's a negative enough effect, I will turn around and say that this particular liberty is not worth it - while it seems to me that many libertarians will fight for the side of liberty just because their ideology demands it.

To me the most important thing is the effect of what you're going to do. How is it going to affect everyone involved? If it's good, then we should allow it. If it only benefits the person who's doing it, and everyone else ends up losing out, then nope, I can't support it. Obviously things have to be looked at on a case by case basis, things are usually more complicated and a cookie cutter solution will never work out.. but essentially that's the approach.

That's how I look at the world.. Freedom and liberty are important to me, I used to live under a communist regime where the freedoms of movement and expression were suppressed. I'm just not fanatical about it, and every time I hear libertarianism espoused as a valid ideology, it seems to be applied in a fanatical "let's forget the facts on the ground and only focus on the ideology" type manner.

Having thought it over I guess it seems that I probably agree with "the people on the list" about a lot of stuff (I think), because they lean towards the left.. but it seems that we'll probably disagree on certain items, if my assessment of libertarianism is correct. If it isn't, maybe I'm just against right-wing libertarianism? I don't really know. All I know is that from what I have seen libertarianism never leads to anything good. I'm willing to have my mind changed, but I'm actually someone who doesn't mind paying a bit more in taxes in return for good healthcare and other services, as much as I might shake my fist at the government from time to time, so it seems that I just disagree with the ideology on a very fundamental level. Most people who take up the ideology seem to just be people who don't like to pay taxes and who think the government is inefficient.. I can definitely see the appeal.. It just seems to be taken to a rather extreme end.

This was really well said.
 
I'm sorry, I didn't realize that there were so many libertarians here.

Now I feel like a bit of a jerk calling them all crazy. I don't even remember any of their opinions ever seeming that crazy, at least from the list of the "sane libertarians" given above.
Like a lot of political groups, but maybe even more than most, libertarians have a bit of a problem with their crazy people being very audible while their reasonable people are quieter. There are also a number of varieties of them which have little in common other than shared political beliefs.

One of the more common types in geeky locations such as this one is the type that attempts to build their views of how society should work by defining axioms (e.g. a set of rights including fairly absolute property rights, rational economic behavior, and so on) and trying to deduce everything from those axioms. This is a great way to make a self-consistent model, but what it produces is a model. Models are always oversimplified relative to reality and may not correspond to reality well at all. But if you try to argue with them, they'll respond with something that makes perfect sense within their framework but still doesn't match reality. It's very hard to convince people their views are just a model if they can't think outside their model and have staked a lot of their identity on it.

Common sub-types include most Objectivists and most anarcho-capitalists. Among the anarcho-capitalist writers, Rothbard is worth reading. He concisely shows both the internally consistent reasoning and the severe limitations in actually matching reality that appear in that sort of approach. I especially like his explanation of the business cycle. It shows some insight into some aspects of them, but his theory is seriously flawed because it doesn't take enough about how actual economies work into account. His essay on pollution is also interesting - here he attacks polluters as violators of property rights who should pay restitution for damage they cause other property owners. When it comes to enforcing this, he becomes a lot less coherent. A collective issue like global warming, where some types of economic activity cause uncompensated and impossible to quantify damage to much or all of the planet, will simply break this ideology, which is why you'll see a lot of global warming skepticism or at least minimization among this lot.

There's also a completely different type of libertarian - the variety commonly associated with rednecks. These libertarians tend to be white, rural or suburban, and working to middle class. Here, you'll see a few positions commonly labeled conservative, like opposition to immigration, a strong emphasis on gun rights, sometimes support of the death penalty, sometimes opposition to legal abortion (defensible if you view a fetus as a person with rights), and a few other things. These are combined with "hands-off" views on the majority of social issues - they tend to take a dim view of government interference in issues of morality and would tend to think the state should play no role in any kind of marriage (straight, gay, or otherwise), almost always support drug legalization, usually oppose military involvement in foreign countries with no obvious connection to national self-defense, etc. Some proportion are also racist, but they rarely think they are and would generally be perfectly fine with a black person who happened to act and believe the same things they do and live in the same location.

A third type can be found in what I call the pro-business variety, which use libertarian ideology to make political points but isn't as opposed to government policies that happen to benefit business interests, such as "free trade" agreements that turn out to contain a lot of protectionist measures that benefit the stronger parties, fire-sales of government assets to existing large corporations, massive deregulation of financial markets while ignoring well-known systemic risks, and flat taxes that turn out to be regressive when you consider capital gains and other things that they would usually exempt (or sometimes outright regressive but simple taxes, like the FairTax, which is a 30% sales tax on just about everything), to name a few. This is the type that bridges the gap between the ideologues, who supply the reasonable-sounding arguments, and real crony capitalists, who are actually at the government feeding trough and are generally despised by earnest ideologues. Most of what the Cato Institute produces are in this category.

Of course it's a lot more complicated than this - there can be overlap (e.g. GW16 and Ron Paul are between types 1 and 2, and the more doctrinaire neoclassical economists are between 1 and 3) and there are other groups as well. But that's three groups of self-identified libertarians in partially-formed nutshells.

Most of the people Cutlass was referring to may not be seen as "real" libertarians by the more ideological types. They generally support market-based solutions where practical, while still allowing government intervention where it is clearly preferable. For every ideologue of any given ideology there are usually several people who lean in the direction of that ideology but will use other ideas in cases where this ideology breaks down.

...that was long-winded, and I've only scratched the surface. Concision isn't my strong suit.
 
...that was long-winded, and I've only scratched the surface. Concision isn't my strong suit.

Maybe not concise, but you hit on the main point when you talked about models vs reality. I think that's the key breakdown for the ideologue libertarians. Their model works great, as long as every participant shares their ideology. But since their model almost always fails to make any provision for people who don't the model breaks down as soon as you introduce them.

In this conversation the non-participation failure has mostly been pointed out around law enforcement. Non aggression is beautiful, and an excellent basis to build society on, as long as it is universally adhered to. But as soon as you introduce someone who doesn't adhere to it, you need law enforcement, made up of personnel who also don't adhere to it. That organization and its participants existing outside the agreement on which the model is founded weaken the model even further, and the collision with reality clearly leaves the model crushed to splinters and reality oblivious that there was anything in its path at all. But the fans (short for fanatic) of the model frequently just go blithely on...as was done repeatedly here.

Atlas Shrugged is a perfect case in point. Rand's 'objectivism' works great...for the handful of believers who run off to Galt's Gulch*, but they have to run off because the existence of non-believers makes their ideology unworkable, and there is no way to extend their ideology to 'the common man'.


*Except that what it really creates in Galt's Gulch is the subsistence farming co-op that represents the communist ideal. Face facts objectivists...Dabny Taggart's value in Galt's Gulch is the time she puts in tending to the production of food, just like everyone else. The need for a one woman railroad to connect the one man copper mine to the one man motor factory is not sufficient to justify her existence by any stretch. The amount of copper the one man mine can produce in a month could just be slipped in a pocket and walked down to the 'factory' anyway, or handed over at the communal dinner table.
 
Atlas Shrugged is a perfect case in point. Rand's 'objectivism' works great...for the handful of believers who run off to Galt's Gulch*, but they have to run off because the existence of non-believers makes their ideology unworkable, and there is no way to extend their ideology to 'the common man'.

I do see what you mean. But I'm not absolutely sure it's true that there's no way to make this ideology, or any other for that matter, extensible to the "common man".

I can well imagine the same sort of argument (which boils down, it seems to me, that human nature is what it is and is inflexible) being applied to those advocating the abolition of slavery, for instance.

So, those who might say that the "common man" cannot, or could not, handle a world without government may possibly be lacking in imagination.

Which includes me as well, tbh. I don't see how* a libertarian model could be rolled out into the wider world either. I just don't see that it necessarily couldn't be.

*beyond a few platitudes like education and socialization.
 
I do see what you mean. But I'm not absolutely sure it's true that there's no way to make this ideology, or any other for that matter, extensible to the "common man".

The path to saying that it 'can't be extended to the common man' is recognition that for this purpose there is no such thing as 'the common man'. In general, and specifically in the case of the presented 'objectivism' (Rand) or 'general libertarianism' (in this thread), for the model to work the 'common man' who has to accept it is literally every last soul on the planet.

For any ideology to be successful it has to account for the reality that not everyone is going to agree with it. The degree to which it accounts for that fact directly relates to its success.

Non-aggression works great, as long as absolutely everyone agrees to it. One dissenter and it is down the tubes. And it makes no provision at all for dealing with that dissenter. So as an ideology non-aggression is a pipe dream with absolutely no connection to reality.
 
I'm not sure what you mean by non-aggression, in that case.

The policy of non-violence seemed to work really well for Gandhi and MLK, though.


Link to video.

Ah, but wait. That's just in the film version, though. Maybe it didn't really happen like that?

And Shri Nathuram Godse would be your lone dissenter?
 
I'm not sure what you mean by non-aggression, in that case.

The policy of non-violence seemed to work really well for Gandhi and MLK, though.

Gandhi's non violence produced an independent nation...which is now armed with nuclear weapons.

MLK's non-violence was contemporaneous with Malcolm X, and benefited greatly from the contrast.

Non-violence works as a tactic. To work as a founding principle of society it would have to be universally accepted without dissent, and it isn't.
 
I agree it isn't. At the moment.

But curiously, Gandhi's technique only bore fruit because of the violence of his opposition.

You seemed to be implying earlier that non-violence can only be effective if everyone is non-violent. Or maybe I've misunderstood.
 
So, that was actually my point up thread. Acknowledging that it needs full acceptance, the ideology still actually doesn't work unless access to the courts is nearly free. The model breaks down if there's differential access.

It's like how the welfare state would functionally break down if too many services were funded solely through taxation. Each model has a real-world breaking point, where suddenly everything gets vastly worse if you push too hard into the idealized version
 
Which are the ideologies that don't need full acceptance? The ones that can use coercion without it being self-contradictory? Which is all of them apart from libertarianism?

But what about a system like capitalism, doesn't that require that everyone at least tacitly subscribes to it? Apart from some really eccentric people, no one can live outside the capitalist system, can they?
 
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