Babylonian Statecraft

[HorseshoeHermit]

Yeah, I mean, in the intro to the game, Tambien makes absolutely no statement about the timeline for the game, or even generalisations about how rapidly we're expected to update. Just that at each turn, there -will- be posted a time limit. For us.
So I was honestly wondering whether anything was up, but, there wasn't a reason to ask, or suspect anything was wrong.

I just check my subscriptions every logon to civf and if there's something here, great.

 

[Tambien]

Apologies for the lack of updates/response. This is not dead, it was simply derailed momentarily by the double whammy of a packed week of due dates followed immediately by Midterms week. Second Semester should be much more laid back for me, especially these first few weeks while we all recover from Midterms (R.I.P. my physics grade).

Therefore, I'll have lots more time to update. Give me a day or two to cry about my exam and finish up a last minute paper for physics, and then I'll get to the meat of processing turns and finishing the turns.

Et_Absoluti, am I correct in assuming that I have not yet provided you with a link to your stats?

 

[Et_Absoluti]

Yes, that's correct ��

 

[Jehoshua]

good show, now I can proceed to this proposition to get things rolling again...

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CONSTITUTION OF BABYLON

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Article I: Government

The Emperor: The Emperor shall be the elected ruler of the entire Empire, chosen amongst the Kings of Babylon by the Kings of Babylon. The one given this title shall be first amongst equals amongst the Kings of the Babylonians and shall have the following powers and duties in addition to those powers and duties he possesses in his own personal jurisdiction as a King:

1: The power to sign agreements with foreign leaders on behalf of the entire Empire.
2: The power to declare war on behalf of the entire Empire.
3: The duty to lead the united army of the Empire in the event the Emperor has declared a war on behalf of the whole nation.
4: The duty to defend the established religion of the Empire, and fulfil any and all religious functions allocated to him by the same.
5: The right to summon the Kings of Babylon to an imperial council at his discretion.
6: The power to determine the social policy of the Empire.
7: The power to judge a King accused of crimes against the Empire in his role as font of law and ordain suitable punishment for transgressions by the same.
8: The right to appoint Kings for newly established colonies (newly settled cities)

His decisions pertaining to relations with foreign powers and his judgement of a King can be vetoed by a majority vote by the Kings of the Babylonians. The Emperors personage is sacrosanct and hence he cannot be brought to trial.

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Kings: Each (non-puppeted) city in the Empire shall be ruled by a hereditary King (agnatic unless otherwise stated), the first amongst these being the Emperor chosen from amongst their number (who retains his position as King of his own city when elected). A King shall possess individually the following powers and duties.

1: The absolute power to direct domestic civic affairs (building of infrastructure, construction of public works, citizen allocation and other things related to city management such as institution of officials and bureaucratic organisations and so forth) within their jurisdiction at their discretion.
2: The absolute power to pass laws within their jurisdiction
3: The power to direct and command the military forces of their cities (defined as all units produced by that city) as they see fit.
4: The power to levy taxes upon the inhabitants of his jurisdiction.
5: The duty to defend and support the established religion of the Empire, and fulfil any religious functions allocated to them by the same.
6: The collective duty to sit and speak in council together at the summons of the Emperor.
7: The duty to follow the Emperor into war with all power available, should he use his power to declare war in the name of the Empire, and to generally uphold as sacrosanct all laws, customs and duties that may pertain to them in the exercise of their function or which are explicitly defined for the whole Empire in this constitution.

It shall be forbidden for a King to hold jurisdiction as monarch over more than one city, should a King by circumstance gain dominion over more than one city he shall be expected to appoint a subordinate prince to govern the secondary city, or defer authority to the Emperor to appoint for aforesaid city a new King. In the case aforesaid city is not given charter rights the constitutional principle regarding governors applies.

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Governors: Conquered cities that have not been given charter rights by the council of kings (ergo puppeted cities), shall be overseen by a governor appointed for life by the King of the army which conquered said city, that King having hegemony by right of conquest. This governor shall have ultimate authority to oversee the native government on behalf of the Empire

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Imperial Ministries

Under the oversight of the Emperor, and the observation of the Kings of the Empire, shall be established the following ministries which, by law established, shall be charged with the maintaining of consistent imperial policy and management over the whole Empire. These ministries shall be overseen by ministers appointed by the Emperor. These ministries shall be.

~ The High Treasury: Charged with the observation and assessment of economic conditions throughout the Empire, and soliciting advice to the great men of the state pertaining to the management of said affairs. Shall also be responsible for the collection of imperial taxes (Set at a 10% flat income tax via existing precedent, any subsequent change to this would require consensus of all Kings), and maintaining the imperial treasury. Headed by the Lord Treasurer.

~ The Ministry of Rites: Charged with the oversight of private and foreign cults in the Empire, with the appointment of ambassadors and management of embassies abroad, the gathering of intelligence on foreign powers, and maintenance of court protocol and customary rituals of state. Headed by the Minister of Rites.

~ The Ministry of the Interior: Charged with facilitating engagement between imperial and royal levels of government, and advising the imperial government on matters concerning land development and domestic social conditions. Headed by the Lord Steward.

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Article II: Religion

State Cult: The state cult shall enjoy the benefits of national patronage and universal obligation on the part of citizens. The state cult alone can be the recipient of tithes as directed by Kings, or favoured with the power to enforce religious law on the part of the state. Failure to fulfil cultic obligations on the part of a King or Emperor risks divine anger and is a grave transgression of a rulers duty.

Private Cults: Cults other than that held by the state shall be permitted, according to the discretion of the Kings in their respective jurisdictions.

Illicit Cults: Cults deemed either 1) dangerous to public order or 2) hostile to the state cult at either a) the discretion of a King in his jurisdiction or b) the national determination of the Emperor, shall be altogether unlawful and subject to the punishment due religious crimes as is by law established in any given jurisdiction.

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Article III: Personal Rights of Babylonian Citizens

Land and holdings: It shall be considered an inviolate right of the firstborn son to receive in whole the land, holdings and hereditary titles of his father. If there be no brother, son or nephew to the father-deceased than land may be received by the husband of the eldest daughter or other closest female heir or if no such person is available hereditary holdings and lands shall be returned to the respective overlords with jurisdiction over the same (the Kings, or more correctly the city governments).

Wealth: The disposition of non-hereditary wealth and property (ergo not land) upon death or inheritance, shall be entirely at the discretion and will of its owner. If no will is forthcoming all descendants shall receive an equal part of wealth upon owners death.

Marriage: A prospective husbands family shall be entitled to a suitable dowry from the family of his prospective bride, to be paid to his father or if his father is deceased himself, in order to repay him for taking up the support and guardianship over the woman. A dowry must be mutually agreed upon between both families.

Justice: It shall be considered an inviolate right of every citizen that he may present his cause when accused of a crime before the King under whom he is subject, or a representative of the same, and receive a just judgement from the same once all evidence available for and against his guilt is presented and not be subject to arbitrary punishment without due procedure. Likewise all (excluding special rights of sacrosanctity given to the Emperor, and the privilege of being judged by the Emperor given to Kings proper) shall be subject to the same laws and standards without exception1.

Slavery: No Babylonian citizen is permitted to be enslaved. Slavery is licit for foreigners, barbarians, or persons who renounce citizenship or are stripped of citizenship due to reasons mandated at the discretion of the Kings be they criminal or otherwise.

Other Rights: Babylonian citizens shall have the right to bear arms, however it is absolutely forbidden for citizens to raise up private armies, the right of raising men at arms is restricted to state personages (Kings and Emperor) and to other personages or institutions that are universally considered by the Kings of Babylon to have the right of raising armed men by virtue of their official capacity, or place in Babylonian society.

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Comments and thoughts welcome, as are suggestions. I also remind all of you that by virtue of being our all-powerful absolute monarch, I have a third of the vote vested in my person with regards to government reform (oh and yes, I am indeed calling for government reform by proposing this constitution [or more strictly, a vote equal to half of the number of players]).

As to the general zeitgeist/modus vivendi of my preliminary proposal (above). The idea is obviously to avoid the whole ahistorical "democracy" thing which in these sorts of games tends to lead to chaos anyway, while simultaneously ensuring that our glorious national leader in the long run doesn't end up unchallengeable and all-powerful. This is done by making the Emperor an elected position, chosen by an oligarchy of monarchs. Furthermore, tweaking the old Persian model from government and politics, I've firstly proposed restricting sub-national monarchies dominions to a single city (and its lands), to avoid one or two players monopolising the system, thus allowing as the game proceeds for more players to be involved in the high levels of statecraft. Secondly, I've proposed vesting sub-national rulers with greater authority within their dominions than was present in the old GaP franchise, and likewise proposed giving them as a collective council a veto over key imperial prerogatives (judgement of a King, and foreign policy ) as a check against imperial tyranny or the risk our resident overlord throwing everyone into something exceedingly stupid.

Finally, I would just like to say that this whole system is designed with the point of the game (the obtaining of power) in mind. Ergo, its explicitly anti-equalist in order to encourage the back-and-forth between players and the secret intrigues that render this kind of game fun, and to push players lower down on the power totem poll to not become complacent (since you can't just be voted into position as a member of a ruling party every few turns if your down under this program, riding on other peoples coattails. If your down in this system the only way out is to work either beyond the political system [thus developing the games depth ] in social and economic spheres, or to knife someone and fill their pointy shoes yourself).

 

[Et_Absoluti]

Am I correct in assuming some of the ministries from GAP are condensed into those new ones?

 

[Jehoshua]

Since the Emperor has less authority under my proposition than the Persian Monarch did in GaP the need for a massive bureaucracy at a national level is to a large degree voided since its the subnational monarchs who would have authority over their own domain (and they can appoint whatever officials they want).

The ministries I have mandated in my proposal for the national level basically deal with dealings with outsiders (ministry or rites) dealings with insiders (ministry of the interior) and maintaining tabs on the economy (the high treasury).

 

[Et_Absoluti]

That makes sense. I pretty much agree with the constitution(even though I don't exist)

 

[Jehoshua]

you'll exist for the purposes of the council I suppose (since I'm going to assume that the formal council session if you will, will take place after the pending turn orders are processed and presented).

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Oh and a note about research. I'm running under the assumption that under the constitution I've proposed, our research choices would either be determined by consensus amongst the Kings (in times of harmony) or determined by evaluation of scientific power and the layout of local influence (in times of discord). Ergo if we had two cities (with the Emperor and a local King in the empire) and the two powers disagreed, at a base level the one who controlled the city with the greater science power would determine the research path (say theres a 60-40 split in scientific power). However if the influence of the other guy compared to his rival was greater (say he had 80% local influence in his own city, and 40% in his rivals, including for the sake of comparison the layout of support for each proposition on the part of other players [in this case assuming everyone has picked a side]) the other guy would end up determining research since he'd end up with 56% control over scientific power, based on his local influence levels (again including the power of supporters) over each city respectively.

This approach to the technological aspect of the civV platform is partly to more appropriately represent the organic way technology develops IRL, and also to ensure that our research path reflects the power-trends in the empire as a whole (so if the warmongers are influential and scientifically powerful, our research path will most likely reflect that even if our emperor is a total peacenik anachronism from a previous era). The alternative to this local influence/scientific power approach would be to base what we research on a simple evaluation of national influence, but that would ignore the reality that some cities produce more research for the empire than others .

 

[Et_Absoluti]

Sounds like you have really thought about things since the last few games.

 

[Et_Absoluti]

However in regards to slavery you may want to limit slaves to those taken in war, we don't want an unaffiliated,resentful population of the empire.

 

[Jehoshua]

The problem with that is that it would establish the children of slaves (captured in war) as a non-citizen and yet not enslaved population within the Empire which would in any case likely still be resentful (history informs us that diversity = war) and socially hostile to the hegemonic native Babylonian population. Perpetual slavery of permitted groups (which is implied, but not mandated in the proposition) protects the ethnic interests of the Babylonians and ensures that hostile groups coming from that quarter can easily be suppressed, killed or expelled from the Empire if things get out of hand. (noting that the terms by which a person could be licitly stripped of citizenship and enslaved, and how this relates to any children they have while enslaved is entirely at kingly discretion in each jurisdiction. Ergo its not necessary perpetual unlike the other cases).

That said, basically how slavery works under my proposal is very much contingent on local actions (one city due to the programme of its Kings could be a massive slave-state, where another has very few slaves at all or even none) and at this stage its not really an important question seeing as our slave population is non-existent (and would most likely only become significant in the event of war/fighting against barbarians). The point here again is to allow for freedom of action on the part of Kings instead of straitjacketing the whole nation into a single path (ergo, its to allow players to do what they want presuming they obtain the means to do so and have the power to ward off anyone who tries to stop them ).

 

[Et_Absoluti]

That makes sense, I just wanted us to basically have debtor and prisoner war of slaves so we could this is your fault and keep our hands clean.

 

[HorseshoeHermit]

My -email account for Civforums says I've received several private messages, however I cannot actually find any messages in my Civ inbox.
nvm it was my update feed. Forgot it was monthly (and delivers on the third to last day of the following month, apparently?)

Still means I don't know where Bulludhu is at, though. I could imply a timeskip of some kind and respond to this decree. Will update tomorrow morning.

 

[Jehoshua]

strictly speaking this is not a decree, its an invocation of a governing council with the topic being a Babylonian constitution. This is because as per the rules of the game initial government reform requires a player vote (a council), in which at least half of the players (excluding myself) need to agree to pass the proposition (either as is or with minor alterations). Obviously for a counter-proposal more people would need to agree for it to come through (if we had seven players, five excluding myself would need to agree on a rival proposition for it to pass presuming royal support is not forthcoming, where I'd only need the support of three other people to pass a royal proposition)

 

[OnceAKing]

I find the proposal overall a great structure for our Government. However I offer a couple tweak to the system.

Ministry of Scholarship

The great war that brought us to this point has set our people back generations. Legend tells us of an old society of great progress, of great walls of stature no man today has seen, men wielding sharp spears that fly through the air and killing men one can faintly see.

We must focus on getting back to that legendary time. It should be the ministry's responsibility to oversee that progress unimpeded by the whims and fads of society. They shouldn't be distracted by the politics and waves of distraction that may overtake our people. They must focus on the timeless task of bringing us to back to our past glory. They should be able to operate their mission of progress without answering to no one but the Emperor himself, who shall have sole jurisdiction of naming a Minister of Scholarship. He shall not have to answer to no one but the Emperor, because the emperor has been empowered by the Kings. His removal only possible by death or sickness, judgement of the Emperor, or when a new Emper or is named, who thus will have the Power to name a successor. He shold not be impeded by religious figures or norms because the ultimate goal of our culture is to bring us back to that past glory.

He shall be responsible for overseeing research advising the council on new things they should decide to research and in times of turmoil he may assume control of research. He shall be responsible for recruiting fellows within the ministry and deciding their use (how to generate and use great scientists?)

Ministry of the Guard

This ministry is responsible for maintaining the military and organizing our empires defense. Should we enter ooffensive wars, it will plan our campaign.

The Grand General will be leader of the ministry and serves at the discretion of the Emperor. He shall advise on what units we need and where. In states of emergency, and times with the absense of a King or his named administrator, such as the seige of a city, whose king may have fled or may have been killed, the Grand General will act as the ultimate power only until the rightful King or Emperor is able to return.

To avoid a military concentration of power. The Grand General shall gather no army of his own, but rather direct the generals and leaders of each kingdoms respective Militias.

Thone are my 2 additions.

Also here's a couple statutes I suggest:
No man shall be allowed to hire another within the Kingdom as a mercanary. A man can only carry weapons within the empire at the discretion of their King. No man can preside over a private army. Those generals who do serve at the discretion of the king must only move his military within the territory at the orders of his King. Any movement without a King's order shall be considered an act against orders and or treason. If a King renders ultimate say and power to his General then it must be written and signed by the King and carried on the General's person. Any action he takes within the territory after that shall be considered an action taken by his King. Following an act of treason by an officer or King, as decided by the Emperor, the guilty King shall turn his army over to the Emperor and cannot raise another army within his territory until his death and his sons death. Only his Grandson shall be allowed to independently control his own army again.


This is to avoid the great civil wars that have plagued our lands since the beginning of time.

Kings should be allowed to enact their own tax within their kingdom. It shall be derived from a person's income following the Emperor's. For example if the emperor's tax is 10% and a King's tax is 5%. The emperor shall get his 10% first.



Couple questions. Should the Emperor serve for life? Or for a term? Upon his death, shall it pass to his son or an appointment? Or do the Kings vote on another Emperor. In times of emergency, who becomes interim ruler until a successor is named?

Who can qualify for Emperor? Someone amongst the Kings? Surely only males right? Can the common born? If only one of the Kings can be named emperor, does he leave control of his Home city in the hands of his son or can he control both the capital and his city? Is there a King of the capital? Or does the Emperor fill in any role a king would have in the capital city, thus giving him imperial duties over the country and King duties over the city? Should there be a tie for the vote of emperor, who breaks the tie?

 

[HorseshoeHermit]

<>

"O Emperor,
Kings of Babylon,
Might I offer the mere observation that the proposition ordains no specific legal course for the event that Babylon falls under attack by a foreign belligerent?"
Bulludhu frowns and hems a bit more.

"I have the sentiment there is another... incompleteness. These words being of grave status, I implore this council to appoint a great passing of time to their consideration."

​

OOC: I am fascinated by the ministries component of our incumbent legal system.

 

[filli_noctus]

I approve of the proposed constitution. I also approve of the proposed amendement prohibiting the raising of men under arms by private citizens although I do not approve of the prohibition on general carrying of weapons - it is after all every citizens right to defend himself against criminals and will make it easier for him to partake in the defense of his home in times of dire need - and prescribed punishment for treason for it prevents the emperor imposing harsher punishment against truly great treason or showing mercy when the offender is deserving of it.

 

[Et_Absoluti]

If in the unlikely situation that the emperor is promoting tyranny among the empire, is not every mans right, no duty to rise up and prevent it? How can he do that if he is prohibited to even hold a weapon? I do not wish to say that your are malevolent or incompetent but I do feel that you should put more effort into your suggestions.

 

[Jehoshua]

Royal Comments

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~ Ministry of Scholarship Proposal

We find this proposal unconvincing, for two primary reasons. Firstly because it is predicated upon a philosophical assumption that man must proceed into knowledge without any respect whatsoever for the divine or human orders. Secondly because it ignores the realities of competing interests in the Empire that must inevitably exist, thus rendering too much power over the course of imperial scholarly development too the imperial office.

~ Ministry of the Guard Proposal

The Emperor in the event of a war is supreme military commander, as indicated by his third duty. This would apply in offensive and defensive situations. This being so establishing a universal ministry where the Emperor himself functions would be superfluous. This being particularly so since a universal command structure would be entirely unnecessary outside of war.

On Mercenaries, Private Armies and the Private Arms

disapprove of your mercenary proposition since it would invalidate the right to hire bodyguards. I disapprove of your proposal in the strongest terms that citizens should be barred from bearing arms save at kingly discretion, to forbid citizens from arms would be a sign of manifest tyranny. I approve of your proposal that private individuals should be barred from amassing private armies (Kings and the Emperor not being private individuals for this purpose). Your point regarding generals I think is a given, depending on the wishes of the King responsible. That said some flexibility would presumably be allowed in certain situations in order that generals have the leeway needed to respond to various foes of Babylon. As to turning over a treasonous Kings army to imperial control, this I think is unnecessary given that a deposition is presumed to include unless otherwise stated the voiding of the deposed Kings heirs right to succeed. Ergo a new dynasty would be empowered in that instance and the former kings army would be under the new kings control (likewise in the event a dynasty is deposed locally all other factors put aside).

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ooc notes: added right to bear arms, and the prohibition on private armies into the above constitutional proposition. Tweaked it a bit to allow for the Kings to give specific others the right to raise armies in the future though (be they religious military orders, or whatever).

Also with regards to hermi's comment, the point about the Emperor filling the "war minister" role (his third duty) in event of war answers his query. In the event of an attack by another nation he just has to declare war and he ipso facto, ex officio takes the position of supreme commander. In the extremely unlikely event he doesn't declare war in the event of an attack, than its possible that the war would be restricted between the kingdom attacked and the invading nation, since no other King would have then the obligation to assist (this is only a far fetched hypothetical though).

Final thoughts on OnceAKings comments. With regards to taxes, Kings under my proposal already would have the right to tax in their territory on top of the imperial tithe. It is presumed that the Emperor would be Emperor for life. Its already established in my proposal that Kings vote for someone amongst their number to become the Emperor, with that person holding the imperial title in addition to their pre-existing Kingly title (ergo he is an Emperor and a King, and doesn't lose his old title or pass it off to a son as regent. Since it is established that a King cannot rule more than one city the imperial "capital' and bureaucracy would presumably move to whichever Kingdom had its King made emperor [although he would presumably be crowned in Babylon, seeing as its the ceremonial heart of Babylonian civilisation]). Babylon the city has a Kingly throne already as per custom established in time immemorial. Under my proposition women are not "formally" barred from being voted in as Emperor, but de-facto its unlikely since royal succession is established to be ordinarily agnatic (male only succession) albeit a King can change succession rules in their jurisdiction if they so desire. No, there will not be a protocol for instituting a King-maker vote in event of a tie, this being because it would be less interesting in player terms than having a succession crisis for the office of Emperor in the event of a split between the Kings (a la westeros)

 

[Et_Absoluti]

How we can distinguish between mercenaries and private armies?