Balance Factors

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Of course being that you are playing on Noble Difficulty then yes you will get ahead of the pack fairly quick on teching. And you using Snail, 12,000 turns, also makes you start better for teching. Why don't you jump down to Epic which is what Snail used to be to give a fair comparison?

And why do you hang on to Rev? You like your games to be easier so you can build more? I can get that for being a builder player.

I could not remember which speed you said hear but new it started with E so I am now playing a game on Eons.

There are big problems with the GAME OPTIONS. It is supposed to be that not selecting one is the preferred way of playing C2C. This means the following are off by default and they probably shouldn't be

• No Revolutions - name should be Revolutions and no rev should be the default in game
  
• Usable Mountains - this one should be on by default and probably hidden. There is just too much in C2 that uses them
• Barbarian Generals - this should be on by default and hidden. If off is the default then all the hunting based stuff needs to be off as well
• Animals Stay Out - this should be the default. It wrecks the AI hunting AI which used is designed to have the hunters drop off their subdued animals as soon as they get next to their borders if safe and have the animals then move to the nearest city.

 

[raxo2222]

I could not remember which speed you said hear but new it started with E so I am now playing a game on Eons.

There are big problems with the GAME OPTIONS. It is supposed to be that not selecting one is the preferred way of playing C2C. This means the following are off by default and they probably shouldn't be

• No Revolutions - name should be Revolutions and no rev should be the default in game
  
• Usable Mountains - this one should be on by default and probably hidden. There is just too much in C2 that uses them
• Barbarian Generals - this should be on by default and hidden. If off is the default then all the hunting based stuff needs to be off as well
• Animals Stay Out - this should be the default. It wrecks the AI hunting AI which used is designed to have the hunters drop off their subdued animals as soon as they get next to their borders if safe and have the animals then move to the nearest city.

@Thunderbrd could flip switches somewhere.

 

[Thunderbrd]

No Revolutions - name should be Revolutions and no rev should be the default in game

We didn't establish that. It would take a search through both the code and python to find all references to the option to reverse the filters. Can be done but not without taking great care to make sure every single reference is found.

Usable Mountains - this one should be on by default and probably hidden. There is just too much in C2 that uses them

I've argued for that myself.

Barbarian Generals - this should be on by default and hidden. If off is the default then all the hunting based stuff needs to be off as well

I agree it should be on by default and hidden.

Animals Stay Out - this should be the default. It wrecks the AI hunting AI which used is designed to have the hunters drop off their subdued animals as soon as they get next to their borders if safe and have the animals then move to the nearest city.

I would actually say that teleport awards should be on by default because the AI sucks at transporting animals the hard way. But I wouldn't fight this move. There's plenty of options I personally always use or don't use that aren't the defaults. I was going to say that animals that are found inside borders usually aren't the type to attack but I suppose it's more likely they will if the target is an unguarded subdued animal.

 

[JosEPh_II]

I could not remember which speed you said hear but new it started with E so I am now playing a game on Eons

 

[JosEPh_II]

No Revolutions - name should be Revolutions and no rev should be the default in game

No this was argued and agreed upon. Revolutions should Not be on by Default. We've had this discussion before, several times in fact over the life of this Mod. How easily we forget.

Usable Mountains - this one should be on by default and probably hidden. There is just too much in C2 that uses them.

At one point we did agree on this. But someone (a player or former modder) came in and complained. We do cater to complaints like that a lot.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

We didn't establish that. It would take a search through both the code and python to find all references to the option to reverse the filters. Can be done but not without taking great care to make sure every single reference is found.

Python and XML just use the name of the game option and test for true or not.

I would actually say that teleport awards should be on by default because the AI sucks at transporting animals the hard way. But I wouldn't fight this move. There's plenty of options I personally always use or don't use that aren't the defaults. I was going to say that animals that are found inside borders usually aren't the type to attack but I suppose it's more likely they will if the target is an unguarded subdued animal.

Then someone has messed with the hunting AI as it was originally written to make the AI better at getting subdued animals back than the human.

No this was argued and agreed upon. Revolutions should Not be on by Default. We've had this discussion before, several times in fact over the life of this Mod. How easily we forget.


At one point we did agree on this. But someone (a player or former modder) came in and complained. We do cater to complaints like that a lot.

By default it is currently on. The option turns it off. At least that is what it says.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Python and XML just use the name of the game option and test for true or not.

That's right. So if we invert the meaning of the option then we must invert these statements everywhere they exist.

At one point we did agree on this. But someone (a player or former modder) came in and complained. We do cater to complaints like that a lot.

I was going to say it earlier but held off then - but if I recall, that modder was DH.

Then someone has messed with the hunting AI as it was originally written to make the AI better at getting subdued animals back than the human.

Not really, it was something we discovered about the AI when we stopped making the teleporting the default. They can get stuck out there and then killed, losing all the animals they are trying to bring home.

By default it is currently on. The option turns it off. At least that is what it says.

That's true. I understand you're still saying you want Rev off by default but you wan the option not to be NO rev, but to mean Rev is ON, and still keep it off by default at that point.

Also, keep in mind that even if something is stated in the negative like that, the default doesn't HAVE to be set in the xml to being off. The default can be set to be on. Thus when the game is setup with a quick play now, the option is assumed on. And in this case, that means that we have it set to assume Rev will be off.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

That's right. So if we invert the meaning of the option then we must invert these statements everywhere they exist.


I was going to say it earlier but held off then - but if I recall, that modder was DH.

Or not. Reverse the meaning of the option and they will work as intended still. The original had the option to have Revolutions on now the option is to have it off. I voted for the original. No idea why it was changed. I don't find it adversely affects the AI except in some situations that C2C has made it worse eg vassals and colonies.

Not really, it was something we discovered about the AI when we stopped making the teleporting the default. They can get stuck out there and then killed, losing all the animals they are trying to bring home.

Except the teleporting of units was not the default when the code was written. In fact there was no teleporting of anything at that stage. That was added in much later.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Or not. Reverse the meaning of the option and they will work as intended still. The original had the option to have Revolutions on now the option is to have it off. I voted for the original. No idea why it was changed. I don't find it adversely affects the AI except in some situations that C2C has made it worse eg vassals and colonies.

I wasn't around for the original incarnation of the option which was prior to C2C coming from AND so maybe it was put in the positive back then - vaguely I do recall that from when we found AND and had played that way back when.

Thing I'm trying to say is this,

if (!GC.getGameINLINE().isOption(GAMEOPTION_NO_REVOLUTIONS))
{
then do stuff;
}

If we change it to GAMEOPTION_REVOLUTIONS (the rename isn't the point - the meaning of it is), then we'll have to find every statement in both py and SDK like those above and change it to remove the ! or add a ! if it doesn't have one. If you make even one mistake and miss even one detail you're introducing a potentially very severe bug, not just to the option being on but potentially even if the option is off. This is not as simply as merely renaming the option.

Except the teleporting of units was not the default when the code was written. In fact there was no teleporting of anything at that stage. That was added in much later.

Weren't animals originally always teleported back to the capital? If they weren't always then there was a time before options when this was the way it went right?

And yes, the AI has been adjusted a lot since back then. There have been bugs and debugs and bugs introduced during the course of debugging and improvements so that hunters wouldn't be so easily killed by barbarians when they encountered stuff other than animals in the wild and so on. The thing I think we ran up against that proved a major bugbear is that it wants to heal the animals if they are hurt, whether they have strength or not. So they sit there trying to heal members of the group that don't even have power (but do still have HP in the background, even if they can't die from HP loss). This was often being picked up by terrain damage assigning damage when they normally can't even take damage. It's a permanent freeze to heal forever at that point because they can't qualify to recover any HP since they shouldn't be tracking it to begin with. That was one that was a head scratcher but there are other things they do that aren't optimal as well. I'm not sure if any of it's fixed very well either but since ambushers and barbarians started roaming about, it's easy to kill AI hunters trying to bring back kills and the AI is simply not as good at avoiding that fate as a clever player would be. Hide and Seek helps hunters survive a lot because they become invisible to most threats but then they have to become visible to protect the animals being brought back, putting them under threat and likely to die when found by the powerful enemies that exist out there. We don't force them to return with the food and production from kills so the same rationale that those go back to base immediately seems equally rational with subdued animals imo. Not as realistic perhaps but then again a realistic hunter doesn't go more than a tile or two away from home in a real world scenario before they have a carcass to cart back to their community.

 

[Dr. Elephant]

Simple question: what exactly do (or will do) the Neanderthal «factor» on the units?

 

[Thunderbrd]

Simple question: what exactly do (or will do) the Neanderthal «factor» on the units?

Neanders are a bit more expensive units and are stronger by a point if the unit type can justify a strength boost by brute strength alone. In some cases, Neanders are JUST more expensive, though I think workers might have a bit better work rate. But Neander dogs, for example, are still dogs, just handled by a neanderthal handler. So they are still the same stats except for more expensive because neanders don't breed or learn as quickly, theoretically.

 

[Toffer90]

Or not. Reverse the meaning of the option and they will work as intended still. The original had the option to have Revolutions on now the option is to have it off. I voted for the original. No idea why it was changed. I don't find it adversely affects the AI except in some situations that C2C has made it worse eg vassals and colonies.

Most code that reference No Revolution gameoption is like this:

bNoRev = CyGame().isOption(GAMEOPTION_NO_REVOLUTIONS)
if not bNoRev:

# execute revolution code​

By renaming the option to Revolution we change the option so that what is now True becomes False, and what is now False becomes True.

So the code must be changed to this:

bRev = CyGame().isOption(REVOLUTIONS)
if bRev:

# execute revolution code​

Sometimes there are code that do the opposite and must be changed from "if True" to "if False" instead.

Point is that this is a lot of work to simply change a name seen in game, and as TB said could cause severe bugs if we mess up in one of the dozens of code lines we must change.

 

[Dr. Elephant]

Neanders are a bit more expensive units and are stronger by a point if the unit type can justify a strength boost by brute strength alone. In some cases, Neanders are JUST more expensive, though I think workers might have a bit better work rate. But Neander dogs, for example, are still dogs, just handled by a neanderthal handler. So they are still the same stats except for more expensive because neanders don't breed or learn as quickly, theoretically.

I have guessed that Neander unit «class» have little advantage against their Sapiens counterpart, but that sound more logical, that way. Also, do you want to extend this class of units to units that could be built after the ancient era?

 

[Thunderbrd]

I have guessed that Neander unit «class» have little advantage against their Sapiens counterpart, but that sound more logical, that way. Also, do you want to extend this class of units to units that could be built after the ancient era?

I had considered it but I think we've determined that by then the Neanderthals have been too diluted by breeding into any communities they are in unless those communities were fully Neanderthal. Even if the nation started as the Neanderthals (the player version) it is still assumed that they have some Homo Sapien interbreeding in those communities and by the time the Ancient age hits, the culture of the Neanderthal is mostly all that remains of them, if that has any continued bearing. We could do more potentially but there have been some game design reasons to create that hard cutoff point. I wouldn't mind a 'what if' option that allows them to persist a lot farther along but I feel I need to complete the Ideas project first, where we could thereafter track the influence of Neanderthal blood in the community.

 

[Dr. Elephant]

I had considered it but I think we've determined that by then the Neanderthals have been too diluted by breeding into any communities they are in unless those communities were fully Neanderthal. Even if the nation started as the Neanderthals (the player version) it is still assumed that they have some Homo Sapien interbreeding in those communities and by the time the Ancient age hits, the culture of the Neanderthal is mostly all that remains of them, if that has any continued bearing. We could do more potentially but there have been some game design reasons to create that hard cutoff point. I wouldn't mind a 'what if' option that allows them to persist a lot farther along but I feel I need to complete the Ideas project first, where we could thereafter track the influence of Neanderthal blood in the community.

I don't know what are the idea, but I already like it. Do it will work as some kind of «promotion» for units in certain, very specific, conditions?

Edit:
Neverless has always been fun to play as a Neanderthal, especially since the new changes (notably the little cultural bonus for the cities). So if they stay as they are, I'm perfectly fine with them.

 

[Yudishtira]

Techs are going up in costs too but it's not as visible.

I can't find the main turns per tech discussion, but this is relevant here too I guess. On SVN 10427, Eons speed, techs are taking 24 turns, and that's the earliest/cheapest ones I have access to. I believe you were aiming for 16. And that's with TD and maybe some WFL, since I'm 2nd in score.

 

[raxo2222]

I can't find the main turns per tech discussion, but this is relevant here too I guess. On SVN 10427, Eons speed, techs are taking 24 turns, and that's the earliest/cheapest ones I have access to. I believe you were aiming for 16. And that's with TD and maybe some WFL, since I'm 2nd in score.
View attachment 517203

Yeah, now you should research tech per 16 turns at this speed.
You can buy techs and get free techs though.
You can convert production to research too.

Your map has a lot of water though.
I think one of AIs is in Atomic era - I see 3D modeling icon.
Some tech icons are easy to recognize
Can I see your save?

 

[Thunderbrd]

I can't find the main turns per tech discussion, but this is relevant here too I guess. On SVN 10427, Eons speed, techs are taking 24 turns, and that's the earliest/cheapest ones I have access to. I believe you were aiming for 16. And that's with TD and maybe some WFL, since I'm 2nd in score.
View attachment 517203

OK. Since I'm seeing the other end of the spectrum still, I'm going to simply take this as a good cause to not move things further towards being more expensive.

 

[Yudishtira]

OK. Since I'm seeing the other end of the spectrum still, I'm going to simply take this as a good cause to not move things further towards being more expensive.

Have you considered the possibility that a runaway leader is going to get ahead of "the curve", and the more you slow everyone down, the further ahead they get, because they are less affected. I haven't been paying close attention, but I'm pretty sure my tech leader doesn't take 20+ turns per tech.

I'm probably wasting my time. I just realized that difficulty has got to be an issue too. If you slow the Noble AIs down to 16 turns, I'll probably be up over 30.

 

[raxo2222]

Have you considered the possibility that a runaway leader is going to get ahead of "the curve", and the more you slow everyone down, the further ahead they get, because they are less affected. I haven't been paying close attention, but I'm pretty sure my tech leader doesn't take 20+ turns per tech.

I'm probably wasting my time. I just realized that difficulty has got to be an issue too. If you slow the Noble AIs down to 16 turns, I'll probably be up over 30.

On Nightmare AI has 70% cheaper units, 56% cheaper buildings and 21% cheaper techs than players.
On Deity its 50%/40%/15% cheaper stuff for AI.