Osk21
Barbarian Killer win Peace thru War!
You guy are doing Great with this stuff I should start a New Price game soon. I always play Mastery!!!
Balance Factors
- Thread starter Thunderbrd
- Start date
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
Well sure that's probably how it would go. Just ... I'm seeing the tech leader in the next era over at a round per tech where it should be 6 so there's obviously a lot of variation and at least not adjusting base costs for now since I'm seeing two ends of the spectrum would seem appropriate until a lot more data comes in.
Yudishtira
Spiritual/Creative
Yeah well I'd love to be only taking 115% * 16 = 18.4 turns per tech. Currently I'm up to +75% = 28 turns, because I hit the score lead and there must have been that much WFL from being 2nd. I would have expected to get more TD from being nearly 2 eras behind than WFL from being 2nd, but it's looking like the WFL was 3-4 times as much. If so, I suggest TD needs buffing relative to WFL, and WFL for being 2nd - of 20 - should be almost negligible relative to someone back in the pack.
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
WFL doesn't care about score, only population and number of cities is compared to other players and when you are in the lead on both you'll have no benefit from it but when you are not the leader in either one, you will gain a commensurate % improvement to your research rate. So if you have 1 city with 10 population and your best opponent has 100 cities and a total of 1000 population then you are getting a 99% bonus to research rate.
Tech Diffusion is based on how many other civs know the tech you are researching. If you are researching a tech no other civ you know has, you'll get no benefit. The more civs you know that have the tech you're researching, the more bonus you'll get.
Yudishtira
Spiritual/Creative
Ok thanks good to know, but in that case I've no idea what's changed. Nevertheless Military Science (the tech in the screenie) now will take 28 turns. And my TD + WFL figure is now under 2000, where before I swear it was at least 6-7000. Otherwise some beaker building obsoleting could explain it (if any such building obsoletes at Deputization, my last tech).
Your research is slow because you ignore buildings - I looked into your save.
Start building research/commerce/production producing buildings.
By the way you all should be in Medieval era.
Yudishtira
Spiritual/Creative
Yes well I blame you, so you blaming me makes us even.
Yes I'm two eras ahead, on Deity, because I don't build beaker buildings.
Why don't you show me your save, so I can troll you back?
I mean, that I would build all buildings, and that there is plenty of room to speed up research.Yes well I blame you, so you blaming me makes us even.
Yes I'm two eras ahead, on Deity, because I don't build beaker buildings.
Why don't you show me your save, so I can troll you back?
I don't like leaving buildings unbuilt, unless they spawn criminals.
Also I meant that you and AIs should be in Medieval era when looking at calendar.
Your game probably started before adjustments to era and handicap infos.
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JosEPh_II
TBS WarLord
So showing your save = getting trolled.Yes well I blame you, so you blaming me makes us even.
Yes I'm two eras ahead, on Deity, because I don't build beaker buildings.
Why don't you show me your save, so I can troll you back?
Osk21
Barbarian Killer win Peace thru War!
Will work on my Noble and Prince Games that I have recently created!So showing your save = getting trolled.
Osk21
Barbarian Killer win Peace thru War!
Osk21
Barbarian Killer win Peace thru War!
JosEPh_II
TBS WarLord
@Raxxo,
How much did you adjust and change the Individual Air and Water Pollution "buildings", ie the Smog (Global warming, Ozone, and Acid rain chains) 1 , 2 and 3 for Air pollution and the Groundwater ( River pollution, Coastal Pollution, Redtide chains)1, 2 and 3, etc. for Water pollution? They were balanced for the 2000 upper limit. They would come into play when the Air or Water levels hit 400. And they were staggered from least to worst. I can't put up a pic of my hand drawn graph paper final charts. And I'm not going to invest in Microsoft Excel again either to do so.
@Yudishtira,
I'm the one that worked on these Penalty "Individual" buildings/events that occur for letting pollution go unchecked. It was done when the AI was drowning itself in Pollution as evidenced by the series of Save games StrategyOnly supplied when he finally got a game or 2 into the Modern Era and the AI was dying off back in late 2016 and early 2017. AI Cities were shrinking down to size 1 and unable to climb out of the hole they had dug for themselves. I spent weeks working on all this xml (along with T-brd working on the coding issues). I communicated with him over all of this. Yet you come back and rip it apart like you know what is going on. You don't have a clue friend not a single clue. The timeframe for all this was before the new Game speeds, Handicap, and Era systems was put into the mod while you were away. I spent months working on getting this workable. And it was working too.
What brought this post about is that I found 2 of my notebooks that I used to work on these issues and the series of graph paper charts for when (what level of pollution) each Individual pollution would come into play. Also the amounts of maluses and what they could total up to. It was Not a Haphazard throw together that you thoughtlessly dead panned over, with the statement "someone sure didn't know what they were doing". I can bring up your post on this subject if need be. Instead of being dismissive of other team members efforts perhaps some investigation into the whys and wherefores would be more appropriate, don't you think?
The same goes for Diseases, Crime, and Pests. I worked for over a year + on some of these along with the Game speeds and the Too much Gold problem that was rampant at that time. Only to have much of it discarded by more code talented members of this team. And mostly because I could not make neat formula's in posts here. Because All my work was done by handwritten research and game play testing.
After my Game speeds were unceremoniously dumped, I threw out several note books on what I did to make my Game speed balanced. Why keep something that the Team disrespects?!! But yet same Team members admitted, as did multiple players, that it was the best balance the Mod had maybe ever had. So this might give you an inkling of why I can get brusk and combative over certain subjects. You were not around when my work was flushed down the drain. So you have no idea the sting and pain of rejection I went thru over work that I pour my soul into for a Mod that I love and have been a part of since it's very inception. Tossed out like the evening trash to the curb for pickup in the morning.
There is so much I've left out. So much that I was blamed for when I was working on all this trying to make this a better Mod. Trying to fix unfinished projects left by more esteemed former Modders. But just like my sig line says, "If I've hurt your feelings with my response that's just how I am, frank and blunt and... Old and Slow and down right Cranky at times......Watch Out!! " It's just who I am and soon I will have had 67 years of being so. It Is what It Is. I've taken my lumps. Many still smart and are sore. But I try to carry on the best I can. Whether it's good enough or not in other's eyes and minds.
How much did you adjust and change the Individual Air and Water Pollution "buildings", ie the Smog (Global warming, Ozone, and Acid rain chains) 1 , 2 and 3 for Air pollution and the Groundwater ( River pollution, Coastal Pollution, Redtide chains)1, 2 and 3, etc. for Water pollution? They were balanced for the 2000 upper limit. They would come into play when the Air or Water levels hit 400. And they were staggered from least to worst. I can't put up a pic of my hand drawn graph paper final charts. And I'm not going to invest in Microsoft Excel again either to do so.
@Yudishtira,
I'm the one that worked on these Penalty "Individual" buildings/events that occur for letting pollution go unchecked. It was done when the AI was drowning itself in Pollution as evidenced by the series of Save games StrategyOnly supplied when he finally got a game or 2 into the Modern Era and the AI was dying off back in late 2016 and early 2017. AI Cities were shrinking down to size 1 and unable to climb out of the hole they had dug for themselves. I spent weeks working on all this xml (along with T-brd working on the coding issues). I communicated with him over all of this. Yet you come back and rip it apart like you know what is going on. You don't have a clue friend not a single clue. The timeframe for all this was before the new Game speeds, Handicap, and Era systems was put into the mod while you were away. I spent months working on getting this workable. And it was working too.
What brought this post about is that I found 2 of my notebooks that I used to work on these issues and the series of graph paper charts for when (what level of pollution) each Individual pollution would come into play. Also the amounts of maluses and what they could total up to. It was Not a Haphazard throw together that you thoughtlessly dead panned over, with the statement "someone sure didn't know what they were doing". I can bring up your post on this subject if need be. Instead of being dismissive of other team members efforts perhaps some investigation into the whys and wherefores would be more appropriate, don't you think?
The same goes for Diseases, Crime, and Pests. I worked for over a year + on some of these along with the Game speeds and the Too much Gold problem that was rampant at that time. Only to have much of it discarded by more code talented members of this team. And mostly because I could not make neat formula's in posts here. Because All my work was done by handwritten research and game play testing.
After my Game speeds were unceremoniously dumped, I threw out several note books on what I did to make my Game speed balanced. Why keep something that the Team disrespects?!! But yet same Team members admitted, as did multiple players, that it was the best balance the Mod had maybe ever had. So this might give you an inkling of why I can get brusk and combative over certain subjects. You were not around when my work was flushed down the drain. So you have no idea the sting and pain of rejection I went thru over work that I pour my soul into for a Mod that I love and have been a part of since it's very inception. Tossed out like the evening trash to the curb for pickup in the morning.
There is so much I've left out. So much that I was blamed for when I was working on all this trying to make this a better Mod. Trying to fix unfinished projects left by more esteemed former Modders. But just like my sig line says, "If I've hurt your feelings with my response that's just how I am, frank and blunt and... Old and Slow and down right Cranky at times......Watch Out!! " It's just who I am and soon I will have had 67 years of being so. It Is what It Is. I've taken my lumps. Many still smart and are sore. But I try to carry on the best I can. Whether it's good enough or not in other's eyes and minds.
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Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
Why not use Google Sheets?
JosEPh_II
TBS WarLord
Because I do not know how. And am not familiar with them at all. Finding some of this old work has brought up repressed feelings again as well too. I just do not want to at this time.
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
I only point it out because its free and easy to use. If you have a google (gmail) login, (and if you don't it's usually pretty easy to have them setup a google account with whatever you ARE using for an email login), then you can start a new spreadsheet in your Google Drive very easily. From Google Drive you can see all the spreadsheets and documents you've created and ones that are shared with you. If it would help for me to do a graphic snapshot walkthrough of how to go about that, I'd be happy to assist.
Yudishtira
Spiritual/Creative
I don't think I said that (about pollution). I certainly wouldn't have said it if I knew you were responsible. I'm very aware of how much you wanted pollution gone from the mod, so I'm sure you knew exactly what you were doing. As for all the ancient history 'evidence' which you conveniently can't produce, I'm not going to give credence to it by commenting on it, except to say your 'cure' is worse than the (alleged) 'disease'.On the completely irrelevant gamespeed issue, 8000 turns is far too fast for the slowest speed, and I said so at the time, but I wasn't here and obviously had nothing to do with that change. As it happens I'm not sure there is any call for multiple 10000+ turn gamespeeds, but I'd rather have several such options than none.
Now they all just got 50% higher entry points.
That lowest is unlocked at 600 and highest is unlocked at 3000.
Other than that I didn't change them yet.
Also there are free alternatives of excel like open office or libreoffice.
Your balance system was dumped because calculations of research cost were BROKEN - small maps and easy handicap or big maps and hard handicap meant, that research was much cheaper on small easy side and expensive on big difficult side than it should be.
Also handicap and map size were acting as game speed modifiers - that is Immortal+ players and Huge+ players could get more buildings built in single era than Noble Standard players.
This meant you couldn't really balance entire spectrum of handicaps map sizes and game speeds, just select combinations.
Now all speeds/handicap/size combinations are equally easy to balance without destroying balance in other places.
That is balancing handicaps equally affect balance on all sizes and vice versa.
That is Thunderbrd made severe mistake back in 2016 or when he decided to add two modifiers to each other and it exploded, when we were checking why buildings were effectively cheaper on big maps and.hard handicaps compared to research costs.
I guess if I came earlier and pointed him, that he can't add apples to bananas (research map size and handicap modifiers were added to each other), then fire would be avoided.
You were wondering why your speed and construction cost modifiers don't quite align blaming hidden modifiers.
Also this was reason why players wanted gigantic maps - to build more buildings and units in single era.
Its like you were using Newtonian physics near black hole, where you need general relativity.
You still could balance properties and civics despite revolution in handicaps, sizes, speeds and eras.
Its known, that buildings completely swamp properties, civics, and traits for now - that is some of their effects are very weak in cities, that have all buildings depending on era and on wonders.
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You know you can edit and delete your posts?
By the way this is normal map, what your save shows, unless you just wanted to show what settings you are going to use.
Osk21
Barbarian Killer win Peace thru War!
Thank You Raxo
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