Balance Factors

[Yudishtira]

I mean, that I would build all buildings, and that there is plenty of room to speed up research.
I don't like leaving buildings unbuilt, unless they spawn criminals.

Are you going to show us a save or screenies of how you build all buildings? Is this on Settler difficulty? I'm not, as you know.

Comments like this, plus the fact that you discuss our saves but never your own, make me wonder if you ever play the mod.

 

[raxo2222]

Are you going to show us a save or screenies of how you build all buildings? Is this on Settler difficulty? I'm not, as you know.

Comments like this, plus the fact that you discuss our saves but never your own, make me wonder if you ever play the mod.

I play on Emperor on space maps.
I use latitude removing or rescaling mod depending on what space map I'm playing.

If I play with latitude restriction removing mod, then I have more research than normally in first two eras when those myths really count.

Its easy to bribe AI if you don't want fight it when you have strong economy.

 

[JosEPh_II]

I only point it out because its free and easy to use. If you have a google (gmail) login, (and if you don't it's usually pretty easy to have them setup a google account with whatever you ARE using for an email login), then you can start a new spreadsheet in your Google Drive very easily. From Google Drive you can see all the spreadsheets and documents you've created and ones that are shared with you. If it would help for me to do a graphic snapshot walkthrough of how to go about that, I'd be happy to assist.

I appreciate the offer. But since Raxxo is actively changing things and my "'evidence' which you conveniently can't produce" is not deemed relevant or by inferrence being of the truth but a lie, I have no desire to put in the effort that is dismissed because I'm "conveniently hiding behind ancient history".

I was reliving the pain of all my work being discarded by finding these 2 note books. And I posted to vent my frustration and admonish a team member who has a very high opinion of himself in all areas. A relief valve, But again I fail.

I fully expect, once I get the Civics done, to be nitpicked apart again. It seems to be the territory others enjoy to walk thru. Constructive discussion is worthy of consideration. And actually appreciated. Ah well, "what goes around comes around" is very true for everyone, and myself especially. I have a target painted on my back. It's a self portrait. Throw your darts the sting is real and deserved.

 

[raxo2222]

I appreciate the offer. But since Raxxo is actively changing things and my "'evidence' which you conveniently can't produce" is not deemed relevant or by inferrence being of the truth but a lie, I have no desire to put in the effort that is dismissed because I'm "conveniently hiding behind ancient history".

I was reliving the pain of all my work being discarded by finding these 2 note books. And I posted to vent my frustration and admonish a team member who has a very high opinion of himself in all areas. A relief valve, But again I fail.

I fully expect, once I get the Civics done, to be nitpicked apart again. It seems to be the territory others enjoy to walk thru. Constructive discussion is worthy of consideration. And actually appreciated. Ah well, "what goes around comes around" is very true for everyone, and myself especially. I have a target painted on my back. It's a self portrait. Throw your darts the sting is real and deserved.

You are free to rebalance pollution properties if you want to - I changed this property scaling few months ago.
Also @Yudishtira remark about ancient history was separate from everything (at least how I was interpreting it) - that is you don't want to accept that Ancient era started at 12 000 BC according to current state of our knowledge.

I like what you do in civics and what you do with properties by the way.

 

[Thunderbrd]

my "'evidence' which you conveniently can't produce"

I'm not sure what you are referring to here. Evidence of what?

dismissed because I'm "conveniently hiding behind ancient history".

Are your referring to something I said?

I'm honestly not trying to play stupid here - a little confused though. I'm also not trying to hurt your feelings. I understand your position on things and I'm frustrated by how things transpired. As Raxo does point out, some of the problems that needed to be addressed I did create, and much of the work you had done was built on that platform that I had made in error so it was purely your statement that you would no longer adapt to the necessity to revert some of those fundamental operations that I had messed up that caused your work to be 'thrown out'. Since you said you wouldn't do it, somebody else had to. Leaving it unchanged was not an option because it was completely screwed up and requiring fixing. I'm sorry that this caused you inconvenience and then further caused you to be upset that we had to rebuild over what you had done after the fundamentals were corrected. Again, I apologize for that, and for reacting to your frustrations with an equally irate response. Yes, there were some things that were out of alignment with other values and your willingness to ignore that despite them being pointed out was frustrating, but all in all the end results you had achieved did work quite well on a number of measures and if I could have avoided upsetting all that finely tuned balance work, I would've.

Anyhow, I'm only trying to inform you that there is a useful and easy to utilize tool that is completely free and highly shareable for spreadsheets. Whether you use that here or anywhere else, it can be super valuable to utilize in general.

 

[Yudishtira]

So it turns out that the nerfing out of existence of pollution, which Joseph is claiming "credit" for and ranting in defence of... was actually done by Raxo!

From what I'm hearing, Joseph changed pollution to kick in at 400, which is too high but much better than what we have now. It was Raxo who - quite recently - pushed that back to 600. I could still be mistaken, but that's what people's credible claims appear to amount to.

Anyway, I've modded the values for myself locally back down to 300. I think I will share the file in modmods, although I am of course still hoping for a fix in the core mod.

 

[JosEPh_II]

I'm not sure what you are referring to here. Evidence of what?

Are your referring to something I said?

I'm honestly not trying to play stupid here - a little confused though. I'm also not trying to hurt your feelings. I understand your position on things and I'm frustrated by how things transpired. As Raxo does point out, some of the problems that needed to be addressed I did create, and much of the work you had done was built on that platform that I had made in error so it was purely your statement that you would no longer adapt to the necessity to revert some of those fundamental operations that I had messed up that caused your work to be 'thrown out'. Since you said you wouldn't do it, somebody else had to. Leaving it unchanged was not an option because it was completely screwed up and requiring fixing. I'm sorry that this caused you inconvenience and then further caused you to be upset that we had to rebuild over what you had done after the fundamentals were corrected. Again, I apologize for that, and for reacting to your frustrations with an equally irate response. Yes, there were some things that were out of alignment with other values and your willingness to ignore that despite them being pointed out was frustrating, but all in all the end results you had achieved did work quite well on a number of measures and if I could have avoided upsetting all that finely tuned balance work, I would've.

Anyhow, I'm only trying to inform you that there is a useful and easy to utilize tool that is completely free and highly shareable for spreadsheets. Whether you use that here or anywhere else, it can be super valuable to utilize in general.

No T-brd neither was directed at you at all.

I'm not sure what you are referring to here. Evidence of what?

Are your referring to something I said?

Sorry for the confusion, I thought in my mind the inference was obvious, but I guess it was not. The rest was directed at the poster who denigrated my integrity because I don't want to jump thru the hoops to show my evidence. And I'm not going to do so for him either. He likes to criticize but when asked to see his games he balks like he's hiding something or it's a disrespect to view the mechanics of his games.

But yes I understand what you are saying about the tool. When my head is on straight I'll look into it. Right now i'm not in the right frame of mind to do so.

 

[JosEPh_II]

So it turns out that the nerfing out of existence of pollution, which Joseph is claiming "credit" for and ranting in defence of... was actually done by Raxo!

You are such an arrogant ass. You presume and declare but have no clue.

I did not Nerf pollution out of existence you moron. I made the Pollution "Buildings" that are of the same type as Crimes Individual Buildings into something usable. So that once you hit 400 of either one they would start to kick in in measured stages. If I had not done so the AI would've still been having Blackened Skies and Toxic Hydrosphere claim their cities and reducing those same cities to 1 pop Do Nothing cities. Is that clearer now?! Raxxo recently changed the starting levels to 600. I forget why though. And I'm not sure I'm happy he did so.

None of these Pollution Buildings were designed to Ever to come into play Until the levels I used as a starting point were achieved. Careless players would start to get the 1st set when hitting the 400 level and then could work their way out of it. But the AI was incapable of doing so When all this work was done. They Died from it. They are a bit better now.

So go ahead and make your Modmod and stop pissing on other ppl's work of which you have Had No part in. Basically shut up.

 

[raxo2222]

Raxxo recently changed the starting levels to 600. I forget why though. And I'm not sure I'm happy he did so.

I did that because I added AI weight to a lot of buildings including polluting ones.
This meant AI in Industrial/Modern era could easily reach 2000+ pollution.
All pollution autobuilds got 50% higher entry level, so pollution building that enters at 400 or 2000 now enters at 600 or 3000.
You are free to change scaling.

Buildings that got AI weight are:
Individual ones - Hunting Instructions and Community Discussions.
All buildings, that are requirement for other buildings, or are upgrades of earlier buildings.
Smiths, smelters and all Industrial and later era resource producers.
National Wonders, that give resource or free building (including property reducing ordinances) or are requirement for other buildings.

By the way nothing is more annoying than someone misreading my post, though English is my secondary language.

 

[Thunderbrd]

No T-brd neither was directed at you at all. Sorry for the confusion, I thought in my mind the inference was obvious, but I guess it was not. The rest was directed at the poster who denigrated my integrity because I don't want to jump thru the hoops to show my evidence. And I'm not going to do so for him either. He likes to criticize but when asked to see his games he balks like he's hiding something or it's a disrespect to view the mechanics of his games.

But yes I understand what you are saying about the tool. When my head is on straight I'll look into it. Right now i'm not in the right frame of mind to do so.

Ok, cool. I thought that might've been the case but perhaps I wasn't reading some of the comments to you with as much attentiveness to follow your response to them clearly. Carry on then.

I did that because I added AI weight to a lot of buildings including polluting ones.

And, I presume, because they still aren't great at working with Judges to generate the policies that would diminish pollution. My wife recently started interacting with these and I actually like how they are. I'm not sure if we are still goaling to get the simple policy civics in play or not but I might have to work on the AI for Judges for this because I do like how it works. There's an appeal there to protect. I think they could be better designed so they were never 100% clearcut that a given policy should or should not be implemented but we can look at that later after I work out some AI for it.

 

[raxo2222]

And, I presume, because they still aren't great at working with Judges to generate the policies that would diminish pollution. My wife recently started interacting with these and I actually like how they are. I'm not sure if we are still goaling to get the simple policy civics in play or not but I might have to work on the AI for Judges for this because I do like how it works. There's an appeal there to protect. I think they could be better designed so they were never 100% clearcut that a given policy should or should not be implemented but we can look at that later after I work out some AI for it.

Yeah, they still don't build judges.

 

[Osk21]

Ok, cool. I thought that might've been the case but perhaps I wasn't reading some of the comments to you with as much attentiveness to follow your response to them clearly. Carry on then.


And, I presume, because they still aren't great at working with Judges to generate the policies that would diminish pollution. My wife recently started interacting with these and I actually like how they are. I'm not sure if we are still goaling to get the simple policy civics in play or not but I might have to work on the AI for Judges for this because I do like how it works. There's an appeal there to protect. I think they could be better designed so they were never 100% clearcut that a given policy should or should not be implemented but we can look at that later after I work out some AI for it.

Judges roles should be expanded to more Civilization legistation, not just decriminalizing Medical Cannabis and insignificant things in IMPO!

 

[raxo2222]

Judges roles should be expanded to more Civilization legistation, not just decriminalizing Medical Cannabis and insignificant things in IMPO!

speaking of drugs there is drug prohibition placeable by Judges

Also property reduction isn't insignificant - those can be both placed by judges or be built - their cost is same as Judge.

 

[Yudishtira]

speaking of drugs there is drug prohibition placeable by Judges

Also property reduction isn't insignificant - those can be both placed by judges or be built - their cost is same as Judge.

Is drug prohibition ever beneficial, or is it solely for roleplay (in other words, for making things harder for yourself unneccessarily)?

Do those property reduction buildings also have AIWeight? If so, they can cancel out the extra factories, right? And we can have pollution in the mod again? Anyway, the first tier pollution autobuilds are so minor, they're not killing anyone's cities. If you have to leave the Blackened Skies and whatever at 2000+, that may be fine (I can't say for sure because none of this has been tested has it?).

There are also units for combatting pollution. There are also normal buildings eg carbon sink or something like that. Do they have AIWeight?

 

[Osk21]

Is drug prohibition ever beneficial, or is it solely for roleplay (in other words, for making things harder for yourself unneccessarily)?

Do those property reduction buildings also have AIWeight? If so, they can cancel out the extra factories, right? And we can have pollution in the mod again? Anyway, the first tier pollution autobuilds are so minor, they're not killing anyone's cities. If you have to leave the Blackened Skies and whatever at 2000+, that may be fine (I can't say for sure because none of this has been tested has it?).

There are also units for combatting pollution. There are also normal buildings eg carbon sink or something like that. Do they have AIWeight?

CO2 Pollution a bigger Earth Problem than Marijuana Odor....

 

[Thunderbrd]

Is drug prohibition ever beneficial, or is it solely for roleplay (in other words, for making things harder for yourself unneccessarily)?

Are you asking in RL, in game terms, or in current game application?

Do those property reduction buildings also have AIWeight?

Ones built by Judges have no AI programming to be able to be used yet. They cannot be constructed normally.

There are also units for combatting pollution

Purposefully intended to be insufficient. The AI will train them up to a point where it will give up on further using this approach to solve pollution problems.

There are also normal buildings eg carbon sink or something like that. Do they have AIWeight?

Yes there are some and they probably to get built - the AI weight should not be necessary as they should be built when the AI needs to control its pollution levels BECAUSE the AI has this need. There IS AI programming for that, but it's still probably insufficient without tech improvements and judge installed policies.

 

[Yudishtira]

Are you asking in RL, in game terms, or in current game application?

Haha no not in RL. One or both of the other two.

Ones built by Judges have no AI programming to be able to be used yet. They cannot be constructed normally.

Raxo said:

Also property reduction isn't insignificant - those can be both placed by judges or be built - their cost is same as Judge.

Is he not correct?

 

[Thunderbrd]

Haha no not in RL. One or both of the other two.

I don't know how it's setup currently but in my view, it should be a tradeoff of happiness vs production and health. There could be some other effects depending on the drug itself being barred. Less Air Pollution for smoking bans, enhanced crime for alcohol bans, so on and so forth.

But certainly, most drugs are flat out unhealthy for folks and should reflect that - and many of the buildings the bans 'replace' do have those penalties on them. It's also very difficult to be highly productive if you're high - you might THINK you're more productive. Some drugs you ARE more productive, until you fly completely off the rails as an addict and lose all productivity as you either die or spend time getting over the withdrawals. Some drugs should make it harder to learn and thus impact education levels.

Is he not correct?

Hmm... I'm not sure at the moment actually.

 

[raxo2222]

Is drug prohibition ever beneficial, or is it solely for roleplay (in other words, for making things harder for yourself unneccessarily)?

Do those property reduction buildings also have AIWeight? If so, they can cancel out the extra factories, right? And we can have pollution in the mod again? Anyway, the first tier pollution autobuilds are so minor, they're not killing anyone's cities. If you have to leave the Blackened Skies and whatever at 2000+, that may be fine (I can't say for sure because none of this has been tested has it?).

There are also units for combating pollution. There are also normal buildings eg carbon sink or something like that. Do they have AIWeight?

Ordinances that ban things aren't buildable, and just replace couple of building reducing some gold and removing few unhealthiness - in grand scheme of things, their effect is barely marginal.

Ordinances, that reduce properties have AIweight, so AI builds them.
I had to fix them thrice: First I made them actually reduce properties by adding effect buildings, second they can be built by everyone as National Wonder and third I removed dumb tag, that simply disabled wonders and did nothing on nonwonders.

Their effects are:
Carpool (-25 Air Pollution, Motorized Transportation - Industrial)
Commuter Shuttle Service (-25 Air Pollution, Motorized Transportation - Industrial)
Automobile Emission Reduction Act (-50 Air Pollution, Ecology - Atomic)
Clean Air Act (-100 Air Pollution, Ecology - Atomic)
Clean Water Act (-100 Water Pollution, Ecology - Atomic)
Tire Recycling Program (-25 Air Pollution, Recycling - Atomic)
National Smoking Prohibition (-15 Air Pollution, Urban Culture - Information), replaces Smoking Prohibition.
Smoking Prohibition (-15 Air Pollution, Urban Culture - Information)

Other than that there are two fire and crime reducing ordinances - they all are purely beneficial except gold cost.

As for normal buildings, that reduce pollution it depends if they met other criteria.

 

[Yudishtira]

I've just realized that we've been arguing about the placement of Light Smog and Minor Beach Flotsam (or whatever - the tier 1 autobuilds) based on the impact of Blackened Skies and Toxic Hydrosphere. If the tier 3/4 buildings cause such problems, leave them where they are, but there was no reason (none that's been given so far anyway) to move any of the others (either time - that is tier 1 could have stayed at 200).