Balance Feedback

[Bitwise]

I'm going to have to turn up the difficulty. I normally play on Noble and have a slightly easy time, but playing as the Scions it's turn 200 and I've doubled the score of the nearest competitor and I'm trading them techs like Masonry when I've nearly gotten the whole tech tree.

I'm not sure if this is because the health changes affect the Scions less (which makes them a lot stronger) or if it's solely because the AI doesn't understand how to manage expansion with the current health system.

Edit: Is Ophelia supposed to be able to get both Korinna and Risen Emperor? It seems a little strong, but I've not played as Scions in a long time.

 

[attackdrone]

Orbis gives each Ljolsalfar and Svartalfar city an "Elven Citizens" building which among other things, gives -20% food yields to the cities. This however is easily countered by simply running agrarianism (which in Orbis gives +x% food yield) and buildings that increase food. Increasing the stockpile of food required to grow seems a more elegant solution.

Applying the proposed stockpile increase through a building could also be interesting when tied into the Tolerant/Conqueror mechanic, if a tag is applied to the building that prevents it from being razed when the city is captured. This way, former elven cities annexed by a Tolerant/Conqueror leader would maintain their elven characteristics.

On another note, what is the reasoning behind agrarianism giving -1 food +1 hammers? Have you implemented the Cultural Revolution? Must we build blast furnaces on all the farms? Are you really the Gang of Four in disguise?

 

[Divvu]

On another note, what is the reasoning behind agrarianism giving -1 food +1 hammers? Have you implemented the Cultural Revolution? Must we build blast furnaces on all the farms? Are you really the Gang of Four in disguise?

I'm not in the Team, but I'm really happy with this change..

First, it removes the Aristograrian uber-combo (why run anything else for 70% of civs?)
Second, is closer to a feudal* agriarianism system, where farmers where used as a regular workforce (You could see this in the roman empire, and later on, in all the Italian Peninsula, farmer had no "taxes", they had to commit part of the crops AND their skills as labourer, to recive right as landworkers).
There is nothing in historical agrarian civilization that suggests they had more productive farms...

Edit:* emphasis on feudal, I'm aware agrarianism means much more than this.

 

[Calavente]

I'm not in the Team, but I'm really happy with this change..

First, it removes the Aristograrian uber-combo (why run anything else for 70% of civs?)
Second, is closer to a feudal* agriarianism system, where farmers where used as a regular workforce (You could see this in the roman empire, and later on, in all the Italian Peninsula, farmer had no "taxes", they had to commit part of the crops AND their skills as labourer, to recive right as landworkers).
There is nothing in historical agrarian civilization that suggests they had more productive farms...

Edit:* emphasis on feudal, I'm aware agrarianism means much more than this.

well your explanation seems much more linked to aristocracy;
agrarianism is by "meaning" a focus of the civ on farming and pastoral tradition and less on war and commerce.
so I don't really understand the reasonning even if it may be an interesting change

 

[Divvu]

well your explanation seems much more linked to aristocracy;
agrarianism is by "meaning" a focus of the civ on farming and pastoral tradition and less on war and commerce.
so I don't really understand the reasonning even if it may be an interesting change

If you see aristocracy as closer to "feudalism" yes... Thing is, many agrarian society where not rued by aristocracy, the Greeks, the Romans etc...
Agrarianism meant that the majority of the workforce is linked to the farmstead.
Now, feudal agrarianism used to "tax" heavily over the workforce, wether by resource taking or by labour taking.
So yes, in a way you're perfectly right, thing is the lines between those abstract concepts called "civics" and real history are quite blurred.
But agrarian societies had no "improved" farms, they had a large workforce that could be mustered for social labor (bridge building, irrigation, multi-stories [sp?] farms etc) either willingly (res publica) or by force (Aristocracy,/feudalism)

Hope I explained myself

Edit: also, I wrote "emphasys on feudal" in the edit of my earlier post

 

[Calavente]

If you see aristocracy as closer to "feudalism" yes... Thing is, many agrarian society where not rued by aristocracy, the Greeks, the Romans etc...
Agrarianism meant that the majority of the workforce is linked to the farmstead.
Now, feudal agrarianism used to "tax" heavily over the workforce, wether by resource taking or by labour taking.
So yes, in a way you're perfectly right, thing is the lines between those abstract concepts called "civics" and real history are quite blurred.
But agrarian societies had no "improved" farms, they had a large workforce that could be mustered for social labor (bridge building, irrigation, multi-stories [sp?] farms etc) either willingly (res publica) or by force (Aristocracy,/feudalism)

Hope I explained myself

Edit: also, I wrote "emphasys on feudal" in the edit of my earlier post

For me, the concept of FFH aristocracy was giving commerce to farms because the aristocracy confiscates a lot of food production to sell it and work from the farmers. thus farms get less food and more commerce.

the reasonning behing agrarianism is a focus on making thing grow instead of anything else. It means "listening to the soil's need" and "taking time for getting 10%more famring production" even if it is at the cost of some production or commerce. And you are right, it means also that most of the workforce goes to the farming fields. Thus you should have more production and less less GPP, less ...Etc

(for me, feudalism is a combination of serfdom and aristocracy)
What you speak about seems to be more the equilibrium between slavery / serfdom /feudalism/aristocracy... etc but it is not a focus on agriculture.

 

[Divvu]

focus on agriculture.

True. But neither does a focus in agricolture results in more food.
What usually is left of those cultures, are the results of what they built, to support their farming. Aqueducts, cisterns artificial canals.
Now, in my mind, those workers are the peoples living in the farms, your labour is centrered around them and they can be mustered for workforce (hence +1 ) due to agrarian focus. Said mustering could be done either trough public consensus (republic) or by force (aristocracy).

So the difference is that you see it as "much of the W.force is directed to farming" while I see it as "focus on agrarian labour allows us to muster workforce form farms"

I admit this is a personal view... Call it Immersion

 

[Calavente]

ok.
I understand.
but it might be counterintuitive that having an "agrarian civic", available at agriculture, that produces.. more . especially as FFH designed it, for years, as a creating civic.

 

[Opera]

It won't change. The civics will be overhauled anyway.

 

[Evalis]

I'm going to have to turn up the difficulty. I normally play on Noble and have a slightly easy time, but playing as the Scions it's turn 200 and I've doubled the score of the nearest competitor and I'm trading them techs like Masonry when I've nearly gotten the whole tech tree.

I'm not sure if this is because the health changes affect the Scions less (which makes them a lot stronger) or if it's solely because the AI doesn't understand how to manage expansion with the current health system.

Edit: Is Ophelia supposed to be able to get both Korinna and Risen Emperor? It seems a little strong, but I've not played as Scions in a long time.

The problem with the computer's play is not the health changes but the barbarians. You've probably gone into the world editor and seen that they have no improvements built.. that's because hill giants and minotaurs have been rampaging through their lands. Try playing a game with the archos or the clan and you'll notice a major difference. The computer honestly isn't hurt too badly with the health changes because they build their cities so close together and are naturally inclined to be small.

As a human player being able to avoid the health changes however, is most definately affecting your level of success.

 

[inuyashasama]

I started very close to the Elohim, and they ended up in a bit of a corner. As a result, I took the brunt of the barb attacks for them. They now have plenty of good sized cities, more than I do in fact, and plenty of improvements too.

 

[steampunk1880]

pardon me if this isn't the right place for questions such as this but, I can't for the life of me figure out how to get the Jotnar to go fishing (or crabbing, or clamming)

 

[Viatos]

Scions

Consider buffing Velite, preferably with their (inexplicably) missing movement speed, and perhaps adding to their Recon line the ability to create Young Creepers upon unit kills. Starting with Young Creepers is interesting, but they can't explore ruins, they're not Recon (no goody huts), they don't last very long, they don't travel fast, and it puts you waaay behind other civs exploring since not only are your scouts speed 1 (but they defend the stack more often!) you have to spend the first 8-10 turns building them. The Haunted Lands is nice but it takes so long to kick in...

Consider adding some form of easily-accessible terraforming option. Scions are extremely terrain dependent, yet lack an easy and reliable method of generating the Plains they survive on (unlike that OTHER undead civ) which is of course problematic since their flavour start seems to like deserts or marshes. Alcinus can't possibly fulfill this need reliably, and their (random/latelategame) Haunted Lands spread doesn't alleviate their need for production.

I know you just removed the Ordo Machinarum, but please consider doing SOMETHING new and fun with the Emperor's Cult. It's kind of obnoxious that Xyklon T'navi Xerox Tenacious Xin Zhao Xylophone Tengatoppa Captain Unpronounceable is better then the Risen Emperor with the divine line. Which is also the arcane line with his twisty little unique trait, which is also better then the real arcane line under the Emperor. Did I say kind of? I meant incredibly.

EDIT: Just used a starting Creeper to steal the Cualli's Hero of Foxford event. That's funny.

 

[Valkrionn]

Scions

Consider buffing Velite, preferably with their (inexplicably) missing movement speed, and perhaps adding to their Recon line the ability to create Young Creepers upon unit kills. Starting with Young Creepers is interesting, but they can't explore ruins, they're not Recon (no goody huts), they don't last very long, they don't travel fast, and it puts you waaay behind other civs exploring since not only are your scouts speed 1 (but they defend the stack more often!) you have to spend the first 8-10 turns building them. The Haunted Lands is nice but it takes so long to kick in...

IIRC, higher tier recon units can create creepers. Or at least feed them, not sure which.

Consider adding some form of easily-accessible terraforming option. Scions are extremely terrain dependent, yet lack an easy and reliable method of generating the Plains they survive on (unlike that OTHER undead civ) which is of course problematic since their flavour start seems to like deserts or marshes. Alcinus can't possibly fulfill this need reliably, and their (random/latelategame) Haunted Lands spread doesn't alleviate their need for production.

1.4 will change terraforming massively.

I know you just removed the Ordo Machinarum, but please consider doing SOMETHING new and fun with the Emperor's Cult. It's kind of obnoxious that Xyklon T'navi Xerox Tenacious Xin Zhao Xylophone Tengatoppa Captain Unpronounceable is better then the Risen Emperor with the divine line. Which is also the arcane line with his twisty little unique trait, which is also better then the real arcane line under the Emperor. Did I say kind of? I meant incredibly.

EDIT: Just used a starting Creeper to steal the Cualli's Hero of Foxford event. That's funny.

When Guilds are redone, the Emperor's Cult will likely be one of the Cult guilds. Until then... Xiven will likely lose access to them due to a different mechanic's introduction.

 

[Viatos]

Worker changes are rough on Jotnar - their Citzens can't/shouldn't even if they could get the massive workrate boost promotions to even out the new build times, which stabs them right in their weak spot of growth.

 

[Grey Fox]

Jotnar are being redone completely.

 

[Mailbox]

A minor thing but Maer probably should get a different trait than Magic Resistant since the Clock Tower gives the same promotion (or the Clock Tower should lose giving the same promotion) and will be built in most cities.

 

[Milaga]

I'm going to have to turn up the difficulty. I normally play on Noble and have a slightly easy time, but playing as the Scions it's turn 200 and I've doubled the score of the nearest competitor and I'm trading them techs like Masonry when I've nearly gotten the whole tech tree.

The problem with the computer's play is not the health changes but the barbarians. You've probably gone into the world editor and seen that they have no improvements built.. that's because hill giants and minotaurs have been rampaging through their lands. Try playing a game with the archos or the clan and you'll notice a major difference. The computer honestly isn't hurt too badly with the health changes because they build their cities so close together and are naturally inclined to be small.

Those unleashed, 2 move giants are indeed pillaging the AI into submission. Civs that start close to a few barrows, at a chokepoint or near barbarian civs can get mauled. I posted a module that makes a few, small changes to how barbarians function that should help those civs a lot. At least until the next few patches get posted to correct these issues.

Thread is here.

I'm not sure if this is because the health changes affect the Scions less (which makes them a lot stronger) or if it's solely because the AI doesn't understand how to manage expansion with the current health system.

As a human player being able to avoid the health changes however, is most definately affecting your level of success.

Health changes had a huge impact on how the game was played. The biggest was in how they slowed down growth. Unfortunately, civs who did not care about health to begin with were not slowed, and thus are growing at the old rates. They will, of course, easily outpace their opponents who were affected by the changes.

 

[Milaga]

1.4 will change terraforming massively.

I hope so. All of these civs turning their lands into lands they are well adapted to really bothers me. But this is probably better served in it's own thread since it is not specifically about balance.

 

[dunedainjedi]

I hope so. All of these civs turning their lands into lands they are well adapted to really bothers me. But this is probably better served in it's own thread since it is not specifically about balance.

Well terraforming civs grow out of a bad starting local way faster than non terraforming civs. If I'm going to start trapped in a desert somewhere I'd rather be the Illians than the Bannor or Hippus. It's much easier to deal with. Using flavor start gives you a mostly appropriate start, but terraforming civs really don't get bad starts.