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Bazaars, Camels and Oil

Discussion in 'Civ5 - Succession Games' started by vadalaz, May 27, 2021.

  1. Grendeldef

    Grendeldef Trancerelic

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    Switch teching to Physics since we can't steal PP anyway in 4 turns and Shaka most likely has Gunpowder and even if not it's between Machinery vs Physics unless he has Acoustics or even better Navigation.
    Sell Gold to Pacha & Ashur, Spices can wait few turns in case we'll get lux vs lux trades from the rest, surplus Iron should go Shaka if possible, Scout should be swimming past the kiddie pool by now since we have Astronomy, build half a dozen Scouts for garrisons, Inquisitor should be heading to Carthage, chop the jungle on Citrus north of Shanghai.

    Shaka doesn't have Spices so the Settler might be heading towards one West of BA, close to where the city ruins are. Also, I'm not too keen on selling luxrs to Shaka atm. Shaka also has Carthago Nova which abound to be in the fog very Carthage. Liberating that could be possible later on.

    2 turns after capping Carthage i'd make peace with Dido and DoW Shaka next or very soon anyway. Raze Kwadukuza at least of first take, take Umgung & Ulundi - kids stuff though Shaka prolly makes his disagreeing views known in some manner.

    About rules - can we coop DoW A with B if we already are in war with A? Like in this case ask Shaka to DoW Dido without giving him anything.


    ---

    Wait, FP is still available? Dido was building it on my turn but doesn't have it. If possible I'd use the GE for that though 8 turns is a long wait.

    ----

    *** We even have a GW in one turn so pop that and get FP in Medina on next turn. ***
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2021 at 10:42 AM
  2. vadalaz

    vadalaz Emperor

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    Shaka is 5 techs ahead of us and that's just the Metallurgy beeline, so no Acoustics or Navigation. We could also trade Spices, Gold and Cotton for Silk with Ashur. Cotton to Shaka ends on turn 161 anyway.

    I'd try to ally Cape Town before DoWing Shaka. We'll likely win the techs quest, and unless it's a tie with Shaka, a 500g gift will give us ally status.

    Yeah I think that's fine.
     
  3. Grendeldef

    Grendeldef Trancerelic

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    Yeah, I didn't even check what he was building, just the # of techs - Red Fort ftw.

    Allying CT if we get the sci q is a solid plan as we can also do the other quests to keep it allied for a while.

    Trading 3 luxes to one which there's no CS q nor any city wants is too expensive when we're likely to meet others in few turns. I'm in favour of FP and multiple Scouts or at least either of those to resolve the immediate happiness issue.

    Also, why is there a lumber-jack cutting forest near Shanghai? Is this same over-worked individual that made Damascus look like Iceland...
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2021 at 5:56 AM
  4. raider980

    raider980 Prince

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    I looked at the save file and will play after work. Random questions and comments:
    • So we're stealing PP I assume. We've already got LToP but I think PP will be the only option if I'm reading the above correctly.
    • Why FP in Medina and not Mecca? Just wondering. ...lol, that's a good pun.
      • Where did you see Dido building it?
    • Shaka will have Red Fort in 17 turns, making our life a little harder then.
    • We can sell luxes for gpt since we're in Renaissance which means 10x4=40gpt we are allowed to get from AI and right now we're only getting 5gpt net.
    • Do we need all these workers? Our unit maintenance costs are really high.
    • Five turns before we can win the science quest from CT. We are also about to get Gems in 13 turns.
    • Why build Scouts for garrison? Is there something besides that Tradition policy, which we don't have, that makes it worthwhile?
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2021 at 9:15 AM
  5. Grendeldef

    Grendeldef Trancerelic

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    Nope, we can't steal PP hence you need to switch teching to Physics so we can steal Gunpowder instead of Physics

    Less wasted hammers as both can build it in one turn with GE

    Carthage when we had a spy there - at least I thought I saw that. I didn't follow the progression anyway.

    Cut the Citrus jungle, camp on Ivory, Beijing has iron & horses, pre-build a road to BA in direction of their Incense, farm around the lake in Medina and so on and if they really don't have anything to build they're useful city scouts & bates (if that's allowed). You can also fill every tile in BA with a road and in desperate labour over supply make citadels near Nanjing/Medina.

    Yup, dump 500G to CT after that so we'll be allies instead of Shaka as VADA suggested - the war between us is in the books. Don't make peace with Dido before that unless you'll need a turn or so for moving the troops. The peace deal is getting better by the turn and we can use all the xp taking pot shots gives.

    Military Caste in Honor - 2 cpt & 1 local happiness. It gets even better if we were to continue Tradition when the Scouts will be free. This obviously has diminishing returns with FP but I'd still go for FP and use Scouts as balancing acts where possible.

    ---
    Marvellous timing that next turn Shakespeare has as Cahokia wants one and we're 60/60 with never mind the possible Patronage pop.
    It seems Machu isn't exactly swarming units so I'd put a Pike or two there as well. That would slow down Shaka more than a bit should he go to war against Pacha. Also it'd keep our defensive line well beyond our borders.
    There's also a useless road on Nanjing Incense and I'd still leave that Shanghai forest standing tall.
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2021 at 10:56 AM
  6. raider980

    raider980 Prince

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    Why can't we steal PP? We're stealing from Shaka. And he's building Red Fort which means he has Metallurgy and so also Printing Press. Edit. Unless I'm looking at the wrong Tech Tree online. I swear there are so many that are wrong or not up to date and they're the ones that come up first.
    I'm not sure what this means. Shakespeare's Theater?
     
  7. Grendeldef

    Grendeldef Trancerelic

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    We don't have the beakers to get through prerequisites in time so PP will not be available.

    Nope even though I played my fair share of Civ2 (Might've been a WW in Civ3 & Civ4, too but I skipped those. I just get bored easily with repetitive writing so I referred to the shortly spawning GW as Shakespeare ;)

    ---
    Also, I'd put Ironworks in Mecca as soon as we have Machinery after the steal. I've a feeling that we'll be burning few cities in the future and building Nationals will get tricky and while it's not necessary a Garden in Mecca would be handy even if bulbing is disallowed I assume planting outside workable tiles is which might come handy with remote Coal, Aluminium or Uranium.
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2021 at 2:07 PM
  8. raider980

    raider980 Prince

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    We need to follow the Inquisitor with a Great Phrophet in order to completely wipe out Dido's Holy City right?
     
  9. beetle

    beetle Deity

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    No, the single Inquisitor use and Carthage is no longer a Holy City. But it might not follow our religion right away. And even without a Holy City, Dido can still spawn GPr. But none of this is a problem, and this is the strongest religion gave I have played in a while. Which is why I hope we close out Tradition, so we can buy three or four GE. Same with Rationalism over Patronage. I would rather buy 3/4 GS rather than count on CS GP gifts. (OTOH, we are planting GS rather than bulbing, but either way GS are great too.)
     
  10. raider980

    raider980 Prince

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    What are the peace rules again? Can I propose peace and then accept it if Dido offers one of her cities? Or do I have to remove the city and accept white peace? She's offering Saguntum, not sure we want it.
    World Congress founded, anyone care what I pick?
     
  11. beetle

    beetle Deity

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    Edit to mention to @raider980 that “unit maintenance” is not a problem for us! We have closed out Honor and we are war! Negative gpt is not relevant.
    I understood the spirit of the rule is that the player cannot make the peace deal better. If Dido is offering a crap city, then just taking White Peace is fine. But you cannot delete the city and take all her gold instead.
    I vote for Worlds Fair.
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2021 at 9:07 PM
  12. raider980

    raider980 Prince

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    Whew, a fun and eventful set of turns!

    T160. Moving army north. Scout swims eastward toward the rising sun.

    Interim. A GWr is born. Meet Panama City.

    T161. Pop GWr. Open Patronage. Bulb GE for Forbidden Palace in Medina (or we could wait 31 turns). Pacha has a Settler out. Pew pew Carthage. Caravel goes exploring. Promote CA with Logistics.

    Interim. Pacha asks for DoF, we decline.

    T162. 1020AD. We build Forbidden Palace. GG born. Carthage in the red.

    T163. 1030AD. Send out Trade Routes. Kill Musket, GA. Uh oh, Dido has Frigates.

    Interim. Our worker mining Gems is captured by a Carthaginian Pike. Sistine Chapel built in a faraway land.

    T164. 1040AD. Shaka does have Navigation, we steal it. Promote one CA to range; one more to logistics.

    Interim. Meet Indonesia. GA born.

    T165. 1050 AD. Bulb GA. Capture Carthage, not many buildings left. Annex Bejing and buy Pagoda.

    Interim. [Edit. Dido offers peace; including Utinque, I don't know where that is so I reject it.] Oh no, Carthage is recaptured by an unseen Privateer. Double Oh no, Zulu army marching toward Carthage. 8 Impi. 2 Xbow. Knight. Treb. Shaka also has Cartago Nova NE of Carthage. Meet Ram of Siam; trade Gold for Silk, Embassies. Meet Monte; trade Gold for Cocoa, I know one of our cities wants that for WLtKD. Discover Machinery. World Congress founded; Assyria has met all the other Civs in the world. WLtKD in Damascus.

    T166. 1060AD. Scout finds Krakatoa. Recapture Carthage. Discuss peace, Dido offers Saguntum, we don't want that city. Offer white peace, Dido accepts. Propose Worlds Fair.

    Interim. Dido denounces us. Monte says Gajah has become a nuisance and wants us to go to war, sorry. Natural Wonder discovered for Antwerp, Cahokia, Zurich. Cocoa leads to WLtKD in Mecca.

    T167. Ah, the world is peaceful. Surely that won't last though. Heal units. Annex Carthage, its only 2 pop and is building a city wall.

    Interim. Monte DoW Ashurnibanipal. Ahshur enters Industrial.

    T168. Shaka is lining up to come for us in the city of Carthage. I feel like we don't have enough defensive melee units; start several Longswords and a Pike. As much as I'd love to build a Frigate in Mecca in 3 turns, I build a CA in 2.

    T169. Shaka is 100% coming for Carthage, our city of Carthage that is. Ally Cape Town with 500g. Give Buenos Aries 250g because they have the give me gold quest. Denounce and DoW Shaka. A maelstrom of death shall envelope us both, he says. Attack Shaka's forces. Kill 2 Impi and wound a few more. Buy Dyes from Monte.

    Interim. Shaka counterattacks. Not much damage to our forces. I think we're good.

    Spoiler Eastern Front :
    Eastern Front.jpg

    Spoiler War with Shaka :
    War.jpg


    • Ok, we are at war with Shaka! He has the best demographics, oh good.
    • Spoiler Demographics :
      Demographics.jpg
    • We have one CA with Logistics + Range. Two CA's with Logistics; one of them is in the yellow so is in slight trouble.
    • We've met everyone. On the other continent it appears like Ashur is in the tech lead and Monte is not happy about that.
    • Hopefully our City State allies can hold the eastern front while we attack Shaka from the west.
    • There are prebuilt roads on the two tiles NE of Guangzhou and also on all tiles that workers in the vacinity are currently working.
     

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    Last edited: Jun 10, 2021 at 10:35 PM
  13. beetle

    beetle Deity

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    Nice job @raider980 ! Also, appreciate the write-up. Just missing one thing…
     
  14. raider980

    raider980 Prince

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    Lol I always get so excited about the writeup that I forget to post the save file, its above in my edited post.
     
  15. Grendeldef

    Grendeldef Trancerelic

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    Lovely Friday morning, sun is shining, fresh tank of coffee & we have a war with CAs on our side besides I find it especially satisfying to kill Impis out of all units.

    --

    Am I wrong assuming that our capping Horseman has been upgraded to a CA?

    ---

    I couldn't help myself and played 10 turns so I won't comment on much of anything until Nizef has done his part unless he's still busy and/or wants to switch turns with me.
    I admit that I didn't keep detailed track nor was particularly pedantic in my endeavours but I have the autosaves if needed.
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2021 at 2:26 AM
  16. beetle

    beetle Deity

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    That is unfortunate. He is in Carthage. Gift him to a CS?

    Also Bejing needs a Courthouse. I am all for building units in expos, but at this point, I do not think we should be building units without Armories first.
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2021 at 4:30 PM
  17. Grendeldef

    Grendeldef Trancerelic

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    Yup, based on promotions that's him.

    ---

    - bought Workshop in Carthage to build IW in Mecca
    - liberated Carthago Nova to get brownie points with others and to remove a flank from Shaka's offense
    - took & razed 2 Shaka's cities and removed the roads where I could
    - instead of units I build mostly Unis & Colosseums
    - planted a GS near Mecca
    - as policy I took Philantropy/Patronage
    - sold luxes to Monte, Ganjaman & Ramk
    - moved to spy to Assur as I didn't expect Ulundi to be in Shaka's hands for next 29 turns
    - passed info to Ram that Ashur is plotting against him as they seemed most pissed about how we handle our international relationships
    - pledged Kabul & Geneva

    current state:

    - all population should be reassigned as I was in negative happiness most of the time and I recruited quite a few specialists
    - I was planning on Nat. Epic in Mecca next
    - Citrus is cleared for plantation & there's a GG nearby, 2 CSs want it
    - Prophet among the CA bunch heading to Kabul & Geneva to kick some heretic behinds
    - Missionary near Kabul is a lost soul used for scouting
    - Missionary in Beijing has a televangelist gig in Carthage
    - road to BA is one tile short due to traffic jam but it's gonna continue the same line on the other side of the city
    - Umgun should fall next turn as Shaka seems to be running out of Impis. Since we don't have a Horseman there're 2 Muskets, one cannonfodder by the Sheep & the capping one ready jump over the river. Ranged CAs are mostly on the southside so you can kill the visible Impi without endaring them if need be. Mostly Shaka is throwing Trebuchets at us now.
    - Shaka's latest peace offer was 4 cities
    - techwise I was heading for Industrialization
    - CS allies have been holding the line very well
    - few visits by Machu border but no one has even crossed the river
    - Monte likes us much more than Ashur which is excellent
    - Guangzhou is preparing for annexing rather than being a puppet hence the farms but I'm not that sure this will happen

    ---

    While approaching Ulundi which also seems to only have one lux like Carthage I begun to wonder if this typical for the map type. Both capitals were settled on T0 and it happens that there's only one lux for someone but I can't recall ever seeing two capitals suffering the same handicap.

    Hah, didn't notice while playing but Carthage is still on Gold Focus :) Apparently I was too surprised & shocked for it just being annexed.
     

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    Last edited: Jun 11, 2021 at 11:25 AM
  18. raider980

    raider980 Prince

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    Oh yea, my bad. I thought he'd upgrade to a knight, forgot with CA's there are no knights. But why gift him? He's still a CA.

    I don't normally use capping horses so wasn't thinking about that; just one reason I normally have a hard time with capping cities I guess. Conquering Shaka may be a little harder I guess. I also don't normally bother with Armories, they take too long to build (maybe reason #2).
     
  19. Nizef

    Nizef King

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    Gren, it is okay. I have had a crazy week, thus not being able to play much. It is better that I stay on the sidelines for this one.
     
  20. Grendeldef

    Grendeldef Trancerelic

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    Ok, then and Vada can continue from T180.

    -----

    There're pics & some details with the save now.
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2021 at 10:31 AM

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