Beefjack interview (Morocco hinted?)

Yeah, but she's explicitly Almoravid instead of Moroccan. That requires digging specifically for a female leader for even Firaxis to know to look for her.
 
Art Grin said:
We're talking about Morocco here anyway. Almost all of their leaders are obscure and not well known to the normal person.
Click to expand...
What do you guys mean actually by obscure? That there isn't much historical reference/knowledge or that the target fanbase/potential buyers would not much know about the person.

As for the leader I would't mind if Zaynab is the leader of the Morrocans/Almoravids if the things told about her is true. That she was the person behind the creation of the almoravid dynasty.

But still I would love to see Tarik Ibn Ziyad as the Morrocan leader. I come up with a very original UA with him in mind. When Tarik Ibn Ziyad set foot on Spain, he ordered his men to burn down their own ships before the battle of "Wadi Birbat" or "Lukkah" to motivate his men to win or die in honor. He said to his army that was outnumbered 5:1 (12000 moors fighting 60000 visigoths, 100000 in some records): "The sea is behind you and the enemy is in front of you; where do you think you will go?".http://www.worldmonumentphotos.com/blog.php?articleID=13
With this event in mind their UA could be named: Burn the ships (or something alike). This UA should give them the abbility to turn certain ships/"ship type" into melee units. I don't know if this UA would be too powerful or not, but I came up with the idea and I did kinda like the originalty.
 
Tarik would be awesome as a leader. I would definitely prefer him over a Jewish Berber lady who resisted Arabs. Especially since the Morocco is thought of to the general public as Muslim.
 
trexeric said:
Tarik would be awesome as a leader. I would definitely prefer him over a Jewish Berber lady who resisted Arabs. Especially since the Morocco is thought of to the general public as Muslim.
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But wouldn't that be a way to educate said public otherwise?
 
I don't get why everyone keeps thinking of Kahina as a Jewish Berber - even the Wikipedia page on her says that:

The idea that the Jrāwa [Kahina's tribe] were Judaized comes from the medieval historian Ibn Khaldun, who named them among a number of such tribes. Hirschberg and Talbi note that Ibn Khaldun seems to have been referring to a time before the advent of the late Roman and Byzantine empires, and a little later in the same paragraph seems to say that by Roman times "the tribes" (presumably those he had listed before) had become Christianized. In the words of H. Z. Hirschberg, "of all the known movements of conversion to Judaism and incidents of Judaizing, those connected with the Berbers and Sudanese in Africa are the least authenticated. Whatever has been written on them is extremely questionable." Hirschberg further points out that in the oral legends of Algerian Jews, "Kahya" was depicted as an ogre and persecutor of Jews.
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At best Kahina's Jewishness is debatable, at worst it's highly improbable. Kahina is a highly revered pan-Berber figure, a symbol many Berbers even today think of especially as the Berbers still often do not get on friendly terms with the Arabs.
 
But even if she wasn't Jewish she still resisted Arabs. And besides, it is going to be a Moroccan civ rather than a Berber civ... so a pan-Berber leader wouldn't make a whole lot of sense. It would make sense, however, to have, say, an Almohad leader.
 
Since when have small things like logic, appropriateness, or intellectual sense stood in Firaxis' way when they can shoehorn in a female leader?

Whatever they call them... Moroccans, Almoravids, Moors, Berbers... Kahina probably has a decent chance of being the leader, given her lack of a Y chromosome.
 
The thing is, there are other female leader choices. As mentioned earlier in this thread. More appropriate female leaders. Or they could just ditch the silly "we got to have as many females as possible" idea and pick someone completely sensible like Tarik.
 
They didn't use a female leader for the Assyrians. Has it been proven that this is a major consideration?
 
Well Ashurbanipal was just the natural choice for the Assyrians. The problem with the Moroccans is that there is no 'natural choice'.
 
The thing about the Berbers - and many of the north African states - is that they actively continue, to this day, to think of themselves distinctly from the Arabs in terms of identity. It's the reason why the Berber languages have survived for so long, for one thing. So I don't think picking Kahina would be any more problematic than any post-conquest leader, given that she represents this Berber resistance to Arabic influence that continues to this very day. She might, I think, be a more natural leader for a pan-Berber blob civ (something like the Celts and Polynesians) given that she's a pan-Berber hero of sorts, but even in a Moroccan civ I think she would make for a reasonable choice.

But as trexeric said there isn't really a natural choice that sticks out for Morocco. Any leader will be interesting and great, definitely, but now the question is which.
 
Hmm. By Art Grin's standard I am normal person. or, someone who almost know nothing about North African history (but I love Fez hat)
Can anyone summarize potential leader of CiV Morocco? With short description about his/her deeds. So I for one would have a idea when you guys talking about it. :cry:
 
poom3619 said:
Hmm. By Art Grin's standard I am normal person. or, someone who almost know nothing about North African history (but I love Fez hat)
Can anyone summarize potential leader of CiV Morocco? With short description about his/her deeds. So I for one would have a idea when you guys talking about it. :cry:
Click to expand...
Or you could just follow the wikipedia links above and read about them for yourself...?
 
Hakan-i Cihan said:
What do you guys mean actually by obscure? That there isn't much historical reference/knowledge or that the target fanbase/potential buyers would not much know about the person.
Click to expand...

I meant the buyers, the majority of whom don't really know much about Morocco(and yes, Civfanatics doesn't count as the majority :p ). Most normal people won't know any kings or queens of Morocco, so Firaxis may just as well include the most "obscure" leader instead of the most "famous" and the majority of buyers won't notice a difference.
Basically my entire point was that being "obscure" or "not well known" is not really an argument against any leaders for Morocco, as they're all obscure or not well known by the average joe.
 
Marrakesh is already in the game would be odd for them to remove it to add in the Morroco civ. I can't believe they will add them seeing as having the CS has disallowed so many other civs already.
 
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