Beefjack interview (Morocco hinted?)

[cybrxkhan]

If they wanted a pan Berber civ, they would've called them Berbers instead of Morocco(just like they have the Celts instead of Scotland or Polynesia instead of Hawaii). The fact that it's called Morocco point to it being really a Moroccan civ and not a Berber agglomeration civ. The civ may include elements of Muslim Spain, but it will most likely be focused on the Moroccan State in North Africa.
Therefore I see it unlikely that it'll be lead by somebody who's not related to Morocco in any way other then belonging to the same ethnicity.

True, true.

I still think Kahina's the coolest Berber leader.

 

[turingmachine]

I'm glad they didn't add a pan-Berber civ.

"Polynesia" is bad enough, followed by the "Celts" and Civ IV's "Native America".

The amalgam civs have to be the laziest implementations possible, ignoring important cultural differences. We don't need the "Berbers", especially when the Moroccan Berbers are significantly different from the Taureg Berbers, and from the ancient Garamantian and Libu Berbers.

However, the label "Morocco" does include Muslim Spain, as Al-Andalus was part of the area under the Almohads, etc. (As the name Morocco comes from the name Marrakesh which was the capital of the Almohads). I would consider most of what the Arabs called Al-Maghreb to be free to use under the label "Morocco".

 

[lacond]

So at this point, have we got solid proof about the existence of one "maghrebine" civ, except of the itw source? I really hope of this civ, but i still thinking we're working to a tight evidence.

does anybody has a global vision of the issue?

 

[Gucumatz]

We only have 2 things at the minute:

1. An interview where Dennis Shirk himself said the word Moroccan in a similar context which he has used to talk about other full fledged civs.

2. The poster which the developers have been hinting to us as a huge clue for new features in Brave New World has pretty much a dead copy of a Berber Kasbah [A fortified Trading Post]. We have already seen the Chateau and the Feitoria in the poster make it in game, the Kasbah makes it seem like that's another UI right there.

The Mott Bailey of the poster is still curious, from its connotation it seems like it will be added as a UI to the main game, but to whom is the question

 

[Pikachao]

We only have 2 things at the minute:

1. An interview where Dennis Shirk himself said the word Moroccan in a similar context which he has used to talk about other full fledged civs.

2. The poster which the developers have been hinting to us as a huge clue for new features in Brave New World has pretty much a dead copy of a Berber Kasbah [A fortified Trading Post]. We have already seen the Chateau and the Feitoria in the poster make it in game, the Kasbah makes it seem like that's another UI right there.

The Mott Bailey of the poster is still curious, from its connotation it seems like it will be added as a UI to the main game, but to whom is the question

considering it was made for the denmark scenario, the motte and bailey might replace the ski infantry. or it might just be a generic building.

 

[lacond]

We only have 2 things at the minute:

1. An interview where Dennis Shirk himself said the word Moroccan in a similar context which he has used to talk about other full fledged civs.

2. The poster which the developers have been hinting to us as a huge clue for new features in Brave New World has pretty much a dead copy of a Berber Kasbah [A fortified Trading Post]. We have already seen the Chateau and the Feitoria in the poster make it in game, the Kasbah makes it seem like that's another UI right there.

The Mott Bailey of the poster is still curious, from its connotation it seems like it will be added as a UI to the main game, but to whom is the question

Well, it might be enough to trust in a maghreb civ! thanks

 

[alpha2117]

The thing in Kahina's favor over other choices is that she is female and a deserved choice for the region. Imagery for her tends to be visually striking and her bio does not make her unattractive to the Islamic world given her instructions to her sons

Queen Dahia Al-Kahina

Dahia al-kahina became leader of the African resistance. She fought against the Arab incursion in North Africa where under her leadership Africans fought back fiercely and drove Arab army northward into Tripolitania. Her opposition to the Arab was purely nationalistic, since she favored neither Christians or Moslems . She is generally held to have been a Jewess but others believe that she could just as well have followed the old Carthaginian religion.

Arab records describe her as having “dark skin, a mass of hair and huge eyes.” the comment on her hair may refer as an afro or dreadlocks.

In 701, however, after fierce resistance, the Africans were defeated. Dahia al-kahina took her own life, and sent her sons to the Arab camp with instructions that they adopt Islam and make common cause with the Arabians.

At the end she died, but no one knows how. Her death still remains unknown. But everyone still see her as the great African Queen.

Visual representations of her tend to show her to be beautiful and that doesn't hurt the chances of selecting her.

 

[Gucumatz]

The thing in Kahina's favor over other choices is that she is female and a deserved choice for the region. Imagery for her tends to be visually striking and her bio does not make her unattractive to the Islamic world given her instructions to her sons

Queen Dahia Al-Kahina

Dahia al-kahina became leader of the African resistance. She fought against the Arab incursion in North Africa where under her leadership Africans fought back fiercely and drove Arab army northward into Tripolitania. Her opposition to the Arab was purely nationalistic, since she favored neither Christians or Moslems . She is generally held to have been a Jewess but others believe that she could just as well have followed the old Carthaginian religion.

Arab records describe her as having “dark skin, a mass of hair and huge eyes.” the comment on her hair may refer as an afro or dreadlocks.

In 701, however, after fierce resistance, the Africans were defeated. Dahia al-kahina took her own life, and sent her sons to the Arab camp with instructions that they adopt Islam and make common cause with the Arabians.

At the end she died, but no one knows how. Her death still remains unknown. But everyone still see her as the great African Queen.

Visual representations of her tend to show her to be beautiful and that doesn't hurt the chances of selecting her.

She isn't called the Boudicca of Africa without reason. She razed her people's own cities believing that the Arabs only cared about pillaging and if there wasn't anything left to pillage that they would stop invading. Obviously she was wrong in the end, but her bloodline still lasted through her sons.

 

[Dragonflow]

Spoiler :

The thing in Kahina's favor over other choices is that she is female and a deserved choice for the region. Imagery for her tends to be visually striking and her bio does not make her unattractive to the Islamic world given her instructions to her sons

Queen Dahia Al-Kahina

Dahia al-kahina became leader of the African resistance. She fought against the Arab incursion in North Africa where under her leadership Africans fought back fiercely and drove Arab army northward into Tripolitania. Her opposition to the Arab was purely nationalistic, since she favored neither Christians or Moslems . She is generally held to have been a Jewess but others believe that she could just as well have followed the old Carthaginian religion.

Arab records describe her as having “dark skin, a mass of hair and huge eyes.” the comment on her hair may refer as an afro or dreadlocks.

In 701, however, after fierce resistance, the Africans were defeated. Dahia al-kahina took her own life, and sent her sons to the Arab camp with instructions that they adopt Islam and make common cause with the Arabians.

At the end she died, but no one knows how. Her death still remains unknown. But everyone still see her as the great African Queen.

Visual representations of her tend to show her to be beautiful and that doesn't hurt the chances of selecting her.

She is a figure that existed prior to Morocco and has nothing to do with the state that is Morocco. She would be a good leader choice for a pan-Berber civ, but the civ we are talking about is clearly called Morocco and not Berbers.
Her leading Morocco would make as much sense as Boudicca leading the English or Vercingetorix leading the French.
The devs clearly chose the name Morocco for a reason. If they wanted a pan-Berber civ, they would've called them Berbers and not Morocco. We know that they don't pick the names of modern countries for pan-ethnicity civs, look at the fact that we have Celts and not Ireland or Polynesia instead of Hawaii.
In my opinion the fact that they chose to name the civ Morocco strongly lowers the chances of any pre-Islamic leaders.

 

[alpha2117]

She is a figure that existed prior to Morocco and has nothing to do with the state that is Morocco. She would be a good leader choice for a pan-Berber civ, but the civ we are talking about is clearly called Morocco and not Berbers.
Her leading Morocco would make as much sense as Boudicca leading the English or Vercingetorix leading the French.
The devs clearly chose the name Morocco for a reason. If they wanted a pan-Berber civ, they would've called them Berbers and not Morocco. We know that they don't pick the names of modern countries for pan-ethnicity civs, look at the fact that we have Celts and not Ireland or Polynesia instead of Hawaii.
In my opinion the fact that they chose to name the civ Morocco strongly lowers the chances of any pre-Islamic leaders.

To the best of my knowledge we are thinking Morocco on one interview where the words Moroccan warrior was used - which was translated from a foreign language. I believe it was French too and that's notoriously iffy translation wise. Until I see something more concrete I think it's safe to assume none of the Nth African options are off the table.

 

[Uberfrog]

To the best of my knowledge we are thinking Morocco on one interview where the words Moroccan warrior was used - which was translated from a foreign language. I believe it was French too and that's notoriously iffy translation wise. Until I see something more concrete I think it's safe to assume none of the Nth African options are off the table.

Umm... you're in the very thread about the (English-language) news post that mentioned Morocco. See the OP. No translations here.

 

[Dragonflow]

To the best of my knowledge we are thinking Morocco on one interview where the words Moroccan warrior was used - which was translated from a foreign language. I believe it was French too and that's notoriously iffy translation wise. Until I see something more concrete I think it's safe to assume none of the Nth African options are off the table.

We're talking about an English language interview and even if the interview was in French there would be no reason for an interviewer to use the word Moroccan instead of Berber unless the devs told him it's a Moroccan warrior.

You might find a spearhead from a French spearman that died to a Moroccan warrior, so you actually see stuff that’s happened to other civilizations.

 

[Sporally]

Do you consider it likely they will have any cities in their city list like Grenada, Cordoba or Sevilla in case it's one of the old civilizations before Morocco? Of course this would change the modern spanish civilization.

I would like a leader such as Yusuf ibn Tashfin, Ahmad al-Mansur, Abu Yusuf Yaqub al-Mansur or Abd al-Mu'min. (Except for the last one, they all have cool beard )
For the unique unit, it has to be the Black Guard(who would replace the musketman). An additional unit could be a corsair.
As for the unique ability, the Barbary Coast bonus should probably be theirs.

Any ideas of what their abilities could be? I'm really looking forward to knowing what the barbary corsair will do in case they add that UU.

considering it was made for the denmark scenario, the motte and bailey might replace the ski infantry. or it might just be a generic building.

As mentioned earlier, or in another thread, can't remember, the motte and bailey has absolutely nothing to do with Denmark. The improvement was implementet in the scenario since the scenario didn't happen in Denmark but in Britain.

But yes, let's remove the norwegian infantry. Since Norway left the Kalmar Union in 1814 leaving Denmark alone, I don't think a norwegian ski infantry ever served in the danish army. At least I'm danish but never ever heard about them before buying the DLC.

 

[Dragonflow]

Do you consider it likely they will have any cities in their city list like Grenada, Cordoba or Sevilla in case it's one of the old civilizations before Morocco? Of course this would change the modern spanish civilization.


Any ideas of what their abilities could be? I'm really looking forward to knowing what the barbary corsair will do in case they add that UU.


As mentioned earlier, or in another thread, can't remember, the motte and bailey has absolutely nothing to do with Denmark. The improvement was implementet in the scenario since the scenario didn't happen in Denmark but in Britain.

But yes, let's remove the norwegian infantry. Since Norway left the Kalmar Union in 1814 leaving Denmark alone, I don't think a norwegian ski infantry ever served in the danish army. At least I'm danish but never ever heard about them before buying the DLC.

I suspect that cities like Cordoba, Grenada or Sevilla won't be on the Moroccan city list. Moroccan cities will probably be cities that are currently located in modern Morocco.


I hope they don't remove the Ski Infantry. Even if they didn't actually serve in the Danish Army, they a very unique looking unit and they serve to represent the long lasting union between Denmark and Norway.
I also like the unit a lot.

 

[alpha2117]

Umm... you're in the very thread about the (English-language) news post that mentioned Morocco. See the OP. No translations here.

Sorry I rememeber now (the Morrocan killed a Frenchman).

Probably means Morocco but the term could still be being used for a pan civ from Nth African. It's probably Morocco but on one word it's very hard to extrapolate definitive details. I honestly think given the developers love of female leaders Kahina is still a huge chance to be the leader here no matter what.

 

[Dragonflow]

So far they never used the name of a country/empire to describe pan-something civs. Whenever they add a pan-something civ they use a term covering the entire ethnicity/area, like we have the Celtic or Polynesian Empire. If the civ is a pan-Berber civ, then Firaxis would've called them the Berber Empire rather then Morocco(the full name will probably be Moroccan Empire). The fact that they explicitly defined them as Morocco speaks strongly for an actual Moroccan and not pan-Berber civ.
In this situation it wouldn't make sense for them to pick a non-Moroccan leader, although I have to agree that logic never stopped them from some odd female leader choices.
For that reason I don't see Kahina as a likely leader choice for Morcco.

 

[InsanelyApple]

although I have to agree that logic never stopped them from some odd female leader choices.
For that reason I don't see Kahina as a likely leader choice for Morcco.

We do have a mad queen, a former prostitute, and someone famous for losing to the Romans as female leaders. A leader famous for losing to the Arabs wouldn't be to much of stretch.

 

[Dragonflow]

We do have a mad queen, a former prostitute, and someone famous for losing to the Romans as female leaders. A leader famous for losing to the Arabs wouldn't be to much of stretch.

You forgot the queen that may or may not have even existed.

 

[nunor]

a former prostitute

Who is this, again?

 

[phaethon16]

We do have a mad queen, a former prostitute, and someone famous for losing to the Romans as female leaders. A leader famous for losing to the Arabs wouldn't be to much of stretch.

Just because Boudicca lost doesn't mean she wasn't a great leader of her people, and just because Theodora was a prostitue at some point doesn't undermine the fact that she was the real power behind the throne. Kahina would make a fantastic leader, if she was Morrocan and not a Berber.