Sporally
Prince
Ah yes, forgot about that
Beefjack interview (Morocco hinted?)
- Thread starter Nujabes
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We have jumped on one sentence and tried to extrapolate a lot of info from it. It's likely that it means some version of Morocco or that general area is a full civ rather than just in the Scramble, everything else is really just speculative guess work - It being Morocco rather than Moors based on the word Moroccan rather than Moorish etc etc.
As for leaders - Kahina is a folk hero in the region and seen as a nationalist figure rather than a religious one so I don't think you would find people being upset by her inclusion as a leader. The religious aspects of her fight are somewhat speculative given her instructions to her sons to convert post their sides loss. The fight seems more about seeing off foreign incursion than a strictly religious issue. There are obviously other possible leaders from the period of Moorish occupation of Spain and other periods of history. Kahina stands out to me as a striking visual leader and given the desire for female leaders seems a strong option considering much weaker choices have been made for other civs - Dido & Theodora come to mind. With the Moorish peoples it needs to be remembered that they were largely a splintered group of allied tribes rather than a coherent government which means many of their leaders rules over provinces rather than the whole of Morocco.
As for leaders - Kahina is a folk hero in the region and seen as a nationalist figure rather than a religious one so I don't think you would find people being upset by her inclusion as a leader. The religious aspects of her fight are somewhat speculative given her instructions to her sons to convert post their sides loss. The fight seems more about seeing off foreign incursion than a strictly religious issue. There are obviously other possible leaders from the period of Moorish occupation of Spain and other periods of history. Kahina stands out to me as a striking visual leader and given the desire for female leaders seems a strong option considering much weaker choices have been made for other civs - Dido & Theodora come to mind. With the Moorish peoples it needs to be remembered that they were largely a splintered group of allied tribes rather than a coherent government which means many of their leaders rules over provinces rather than the whole of Morocco.
altayrneto
Prince
(...) Dido & Theodora come to mind. (...)
Dido, if it really existed, was not a weak option. If we stop to think about the Carthaginian rulers, it is practically the only one that stands out. Hannibal, Hasdrubal and Hamílcar were generals, and choose any of them would be like putting Patton as U.S. leader. Hanno (do not know why this obsession of the Carthaginians by names beginning with H. ..) was a navigator, like Columbus and Vasco da Gama. To be honest, I never heard the name of any other leader of Carthage Dido plus ... (Really sorry by my English)
Dido, if it really existed, was not a weak option. If we stop to think about the Carthaginian rulers, it is practically the only one that stands out. Hannibal, Hasdrubal and Hamílcar were generals, and choose any of them would be like putting Patton as U.S. leader. Hanno (do not know why this obsession of the Carthaginians by names beginning with H. ..) was a navigator, like Columbus and Vasco da Gama. To be honest, I never heard the name of any other leader of Carthage Dido plus ... (Really sorry by my English)
trexeric
Deity
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Hannibal and Hamilcar (I think Hamilcar but I know Hannibal) were members of the Carthaginian council thing and really represented Carthage, anyway. Also, there was a series of kings and one of the greatest was named Hanno, so he would have been a good choice as well. I suppose that if Dido really existed she wasn't a bad choice, but the question is IF she really existed, and what her accomplishments were other than founding Carthage.
altayrneto
Prince
Thanks for the post, I didn't know that Hannibal and Hamilcar were part of the Conceil, but I know that the Barca family was very influential. And I thought Hanno was only the leader of his formidable fleet, because he traveled along with it, and do not know how he controlled his people leagues away on that epoch... But it may be that they were different people.
trexeric
Deity
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The King Hanno was entirely different from the explorer Hanno. Sort of like how the King Hannibal is entirely different from the general Hannibal.
EDIT: Just so I don't forget to say this - King Hanno the Great lead the Carthaginians against the Greeks in Sicily.
Heck I'd be for Troy with Priam as leader but that probably isn't happening. Dido is probably mythic and would of been a little like Romulus being the roman leaderhead - not necessarily terrible but certainly not someone who we could historically prove actually existed.
Kahina at least has a place in the culture of the region and was an actual leader of one of the peoples. Depending on how they exactly design the civ she could be totally appropriate.
Louis XXIV
Le Roi Soleil
Actually, Hannibal would be the equivalent of having Eisenhower or Jackson as a leader (except he wasn't a victorious general, I suppose). He was a Suffette after the Second Punic War. He reformed the government, rooted out corruption, and raised revenue. He made it so Carthage could have repaid their tribute to Rome decades early. These actions made him extremely unpopular and he had to flee when Rome showed up and his enemies wanted to turn him in, but he was a ruler (and quite an effective one too).
Dragonflow
Emperor
Again, Kahina is not a very likely leader.
The civ is clearly called Morocco and not Moors, Berbers or Maghreb. While Kahina is a sort of hero for Berbers, she has absolutely nothing to do with the state of Morocco. She didn't lead Morocco or anything that can be regarded as a precursor to Morocco. She might be a national hero like Boudicca, but that doesn't make her a viable leader choice. Boudicca can't lead England as she has no relation to state of England at all and for the same reason Kahina can't lead Morocco.
Also Firaxis never used the name of a modern country for an agglomeration civ and it's unlikely they're going to break with this rule just for the sake of adding Kahina.
The civ is clearly called Morocco and not Moors, Berbers or Maghreb. While Kahina is a sort of hero for Berbers, she has absolutely nothing to do with the state of Morocco. She didn't lead Morocco or anything that can be regarded as a precursor to Morocco. She might be a national hero like Boudicca, but that doesn't make her a viable leader choice. Boudicca can't lead England as she has no relation to state of England at all and for the same reason Kahina can't lead Morocco.
Also Firaxis never used the name of a modern country for an agglomeration civ and it's unlikely they're going to break with this rule just for the sake of adding Kahina.
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From what i understand, this is already an agglomeration civ seeing as it is called Morocco and its UI is a Kasbah.
Considering how Persia's history, Arabia's history and countless other civs histories based on their geographical heartland are globulated into one huge monstrosity in the series, i don't see how this is a forgone conclusion yet.
What? There are Kasbahs in Morocco, and famous ones at that. Kahina is from what is now Algeria.
C'mon man. My comment was directly in response to the comment about Kasbahs, which are appropriate for Morocco, and do not represent an agglomeration in the way that Kahina might.
As for Kahina, she's a stretch to me, and stretches are only worthwhile when there aren't many other good choices, which isn't the case here. Morocco did not exist during her lifetimel if you want her to be a leader, then the civilization should be The Berbers.
Dragonflow
Emperor
She makes about as much sense as a Moroccan leader as Boudicca for England or Vercingetorix for France.
Dragonflow
Emperor
Did Boudicca's sons found the English Empire though? Not really the same thing
Her sons were so important that they don't even have their own wikipedia article and don't get any mentions in any other articles except the one about Kahina. They don't even get mentioned in the article about Moroccan history or the Berber Revolt.
They sure are historically important.
cybrxkhan
Asian Xwedodah
Can't I have my moment of wishful thinking before they officially confirm Morocco?
Gucumatz
JS, secretly Rod Serling
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Outside of the Wiki article, I can't find a good article on them - but this book talks about them:
"History of North Africa" from Charles-André Julien who claims that one of her sons became better known as Tariq ibn Ziyad
But I haven't seen anything else to collaborate, guess it shows you can't always trust Wiki
"History of North Africa" from Charles-André Julien who claims that one of her sons became better known as Tariq ibn Ziyad
But I haven't seen anything else to collaborate, guess it shows you can't always trust Wiki
Dragonflow
Emperor
I really wonder what UU Morocco could have. I've heard the Black Guard as a suggestion, but I wonder what else could they have. Maybe they'll have a Camel Cavalry UU?
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