Beefjack interview (Morocco hinted?)
- Thread starter Nujabes
- Start date
ImperialChaos
President
Could be another way for Fireaxis to include another female leader, so it could be likely.
Arachnofiend
Perturbed Pugilist
- Joined
- Oct 5, 2012
- Messages
- 1,950
Where does the lion picture even come from? Google Image searches of her only seem to turn up the more tame image. I have SafeSearch off so that can't be it.
cybrxkhan
Asian Xwedodah
You have to go way down google image search to turn that one up.
On my laptops search engine that image comes up on the first page at about 30th and it says enhanced by Google.
I attached a pic of one of the statues erected of her and I'm still calling her a bit of a babe. She looks very much the warrior queen in the depiction.
In terms of the Moors her sons Bagay and Khanchla, converted, and led the Berber army to Iberia so that jsut ads to her credibility in terms of being a viable leader for any Berber/Moor/Moroccan civ in that at that time they would have been described as Moors (from Mauretania which was the Roman Nth West African provinvce) and the western edge of that group eventually became Morocco the central Algeria and the eastern Tunisia. Over the next 800 odd years the Moors waxed and waned in power but arguably Kahina's leading of them into a semi unified group is where they truly start to form into a coherent civ which then conquered Sicily, Malta and much of the Iberian peninsula.
Attachments
Why Abderrahmane? There was some WAY better/more deserving leaders in the history of Morocco.
-Ahmad Al-mansour(leader of the saadis dynasty, won the battle of the three king (a really important battle) and ordered the expedition to Songhai),
=Yusuf ibn Tashfin (leader of the Almoravid empire at it'S best, he was the most powerful leader of Western Europe and probably also Africa)
-Abd al-Mu'min(according to Wikipedia, he 'was the first to unite the whole coast from Egypt to the Atlantic Ocean along with Spain under one creed and one government.')
-Yaqub al-Mansur(who maintained the hegemony of the Almohad dynasty with significant victories)
-Ismail Ibn Sharif(considered as the Louis 14 of Morocco). Plus, they all increased trade in a different war and leaded Morocco to glory.
blackcatatonic
Queen of Meme
Do we have any contemporary images or descriptions of Kahina, though? Later representations are all well and good, but it doesn't seem we know much about what she actually looked like.
Still, that didn't stop Firaxis with Dido. Personally I think a Muslim ruler would be more accurate, although I can't deny that a female Berber queen sounds pretty awesome for flavour purposes. I hope they don't make her too 'babe-tastic' if they do add her - she sounds quite fearsome.
This would be a good image to model her on:
Still, that didn't stop Firaxis with Dido. Personally I think a Muslim ruler would be more accurate, although I can't deny that a female Berber queen sounds pretty awesome for flavour purposes. I hope they don't make her too 'babe-tastic' if they do add her - she sounds quite fearsome.
This would be a good image to model her on:
ImperialChaos
President
Just the reason I posted; it's not something I'm particularity interested in. Fireaxis will probably go the Dido route and choose Kahina. All of the leaders you posted are fine too.
Also, if they could choose Berber leaders, why not Masinissa?
However you feel about Dido, she was actually described as the Queen of Carthage. Even Hiawatha was claimed to be a leader of the Iroquois. Kahina has no real claim on Morocco, which is the only name we've been offered. My money is on ibn Tashfin. I know there aren't any semi-nude photos of him on lions, but he does have the advantage of making more sense.
Sure, and I'm offering my opinion. Most of the rationales are based on unsubstantiated or flimsy claims, like those you made about her sons, a shift away from Morocco to Berbers in general, or a cynical argument about Firaxis and female leaders. I've explained why I think she won't be the leader, and I'll engage other opinions as they appear. Sorry if you feel like my language is too strong, but when they make her the leader you can bump this thread and quote me here saying it won't happen. That's all assuming, of course, that we really are getting Morocco.
If it was a berber civ, Masinassa could be good a choice. However, I would still prefer a ruler from either the Fatamid Caliphate, the Almohad Caliphate, the Almoravid Kingdom or the Zirid Dynasty (or from the Caliphate Cordoba, even if it was not ruled in North Africa) because that was the zenith of berber power.
However, he wouldn't fit as a leader of Morocco since his kingdom was located in Algeria(plus, none of these country existed at that time).
A civ has three uniques and a leader, that's pretty much as deep as representation gets. Heck, haven't heard anyone come up with a unique unit, other than the Black Guard that I first mentioned.
cybrxkhan
Asian Xwedodah
I'm too lazy to look back, but a few pages back several of us came up with a few other possible UUs, you must have missed that.
Anyhow I suggested other possibilities might be a medieval-era (horse or camel) mounted unit to represent Berber/Tuareg or Almoravid/Almohad cavalry. Another possibility would be some sort of Barbary Corsair unit (either naval or some renaissance-era unit with amphibious abilities).
A couple other users suggested something along the lines of medieval infantry or crossbowmen if the Moroccan civ is to be tied in with Andalusia/medieval Iberia.
So there's a good number of possibilities.
Zango
Chieftain
Herp de derp, I was thinking of Monaco.
- Joined
- Aug 12, 2010
- Messages
- 18,949
That would be Marrakech.
Zango
Chieftain
I could've sworn Morocco was a City-State...
I'm fairly certain you'll find mentions of both their crossbowmen and Berber horsemen in discussions. The reason we are all so sketchy is we are trying to extrapolate from one word - Moroccan - in relation to a warrior so it didn't give much info.
Historically Mauretania was a province in the Roman Empire unsure if Marrakesh was derived from that term or visa versa. Carthage was in the eastern edge of that province that stretched through to where Northern Morocco is now. Later the Byzantines had control of the area around Carthage whilst the Berber tribes resisted them. In about 680 Arabic forces defeated Byzantine forces but were then defeated by Berber forces of the Kahina a Berber warrior queen. About a decade later the Arabs returned and the Berbers were unable to maintain a cohesive force and lost. Forced conversions occurred. The Kahina's two sons then led a Berber force into the Iberian peninsula. The Iberians referred to these people as The Moors. Over the next 800 years the Moors held parts of Iberia (Spain/Portugal), Sicily and Malta. By the mid 1300's they were on the wane and the Spanish and Portugues succesfully pushed them out of the Peninsula by the 1400's. The Moors were more a confederacy than one coherent empire meaning that they had a lot of different dynastic leaders in different areas. After the wane of the Moorish power they very much kept to the three main groups in Tunisia, Algeria and Morocco all of which had formed as distinct areas post the Berber incursion into Spain.
Depending on how the developers minds were working there are a slew of choices in how to develop them as a civ. If I was doing it I would choos the Kahina as their leader, Give them a Kasbah as a UB (a building we believe is on the poster) with a UU it's a multitude of choices - The Black Guard is a option although that could mean Arches, Spearmen, or any number of choices as it was a term used for elite troops. They also had cavalry - mainly horse but some camel archers. Granadin crossbowmen might be a choice. One interesting one is Granadin Jinettes a spear using horse unit that has both melee and short ranged options - I'd give them low level ranged damage with a higher level melee damage
Similar threads
