Beelining optics?

[futurehermit]

Awhile back people recommended avoiding a beelining of optics since "all the ais do this so you'll have no trading opportunities".

So I didn't.

But I've been thinking about this because, frankly, I've been noticing that the ais do NOT beeline for it much at all.

Basically, they never have compass until much later, so that's a good trade. And many of them avoid the other techs on that path as well. Not to mention that circumnavigation seems to occur quite late in most games I play.

So, what about an optics beeline followed by a liberalism beeline taking astronomy as first tech.

The payoffs would be:

1) Meeting other continent civs earliest possible meaning ability to determine overseas relations asap.

2) Allows more trading partners early meaning you can attack other civs on your continent earlier without sacrificing trading partners.

3) With astronomy as free tech you can get health/happiness resources from overseas earlier.

4) Can give you an earlier heads up on how advanced the other continent is so you can determine your victory condition earlier.

Thoughts?

 

[johnny_rico]

That sounds like a good idea to me. The idea of trading for health and happiness earlier to help wars on your continent makes sense. With regard to circumnavigation, I find it odd the AI usually has optics first but doesn't send out a caravel in either direction to travel the globe quicker, even when an AI civ has cities on both coasts. I find it rare I'm not the one to get the +1 movement bonus to my sea vessels.

A possible drawback is bad relations with the other continent and not being to trade much at all depending on religion/civics. I suppose what I find in my games is that most AIs in the new world start out annoyed (mostly because of religion) but soften up after several turns. With the missonaries on your caravels early enough in the game might actually cause your religion to spread to the new continent, yielding potential conversion.

Suppose the oddity occurs where no religions were formed on another continent (say someone solo or a pair of civs). If they converted you could beeline for a diplomatic victory and achieve quite early.

Optics/liberalism/astronomy will also give you sea dominance on your home continent for warring; an area I usually lag in. With the Vikings, this would be sweet. You could have CR3 berserkers storming coastal cities from galleons around 1000 AD.

Perhaps there is a new challenge, how early can you circumnavigate the globe?

 

[Winston Hughes]

Are you thinking of a more rounded tech-strategy, picking up numerous extra techs along the way, or an intensely focused "nothing but the optics path" kind of approach? If you want to do the latter, you might consider keeping the tech-trading with your neighbours to a minimum, so you can fill in the gaps when you meet the other continent, and use your tech advantage to conquer your own continent more easily.

The optics path includes several of the most important early techs anyway (BW & Pottery being the most obvious), and the only 'extra' techs you're likely to need are Agriculture and, perhaps, Writing (though they can both be left 'til later in some situations).

AH, HR, Hunting, Archery, Masonry and the whole religious path can be left out altogether, unless there is some pressing need (say you end up with only cows and pigs to eat) or a significant advantage to be gained (industrious with stone...).

Whether or not you take that approach, it is certainly a major advantage to be the only civ that can tech-trade with both (or all three) continents. Trading for a tech from one continent and selling it to all the civs on another is a great way to raise cash and get ahead of the pack.

 

[Dirk1302]

Early optics and sailing across the oceans is great indeed. Only researching Metal casting and machinery seems like a pain, these techs are expensive and mostly useless in the early game(or so i've always thought). Maybe there's a path where you can get MC from the oracle and lightbulb Machinery subsequently? Don't know if this is possible.

 

[Winston Hughes]

Only researching Metal casting and machinery seems like a pain

One option, if circumstances allow, is to use the Great Wall to pick up a GE, lightbulb MC, build a forge in the GW city and run an engineer for another GE, which can then be used to lightbulb Machinery. If you can build (rather than GE-rush) the Pyramids as well, then the whole process can be sped up, although that would probably be too much of an ask on higher levels, unless the situation is just right (hence "industrious with stone...").

 

[Snaaty]

Hi, folks,

I got curious about that beelining to optics taktics. So I did a testgame (random emperor, fractal) and ended up with the Germans on an island on my own.

But the tech prerequesits for optics are so useless in early-game, that I decided to stick to the standard research-path for islolation:

- techs for land improvements
- archery (defence, didn´t go for bronze working)
- alphapeth-literacy (had no marble, but it´s fairly easy to get the great lib on emperor when you get literacy fast)
- CoL-Philosophy
-Currency
-Civil Service
-Paper
-Education
-Liberalism

I squeezed even Metal Casting & Musik (got the Great Artist) in.

Since I had stones, I built Angkor Wat & Notre Dame


And, guess what, I still got Astronomy (about 1100 AD) for free tech because I was able to trade for the prerequesits when I was found around 1000 AD

My fazit is:

Don´t go for optics yourself. This perhaps works on lower levels, but on emperor, you need CoL & Currency (and Literacy - Great Library) for early game (remember the money problem)

 

[Snaaty]

oh, the save (Vanilla version)...

 

[futurehermit]

Yeah, good call on the need for currency and col. But assuming you weren't isolated, don't you think you would be able to trade MC and machinery for those kinds of things? You could still self-research alpha and lit, but I'd prefer trying to get one or two GEs as has been suggested to help you go up the MC route and then trade for the $ techs?

Of course, you wouldn't want to trade all of the optics prereqs away because you don't want to give away your advantage, but assuming the right circumstances you could probably get both of col and currency from two different civs just with MC alone.

 

[Winston Hughes]

This perhaps works on lower levels

I've used it to great effect on Monarch. Emperor? I don't know if it'd work, but I'd certainly like to see a better player (that's you, futurehermit) give it a shot.

Edit: I meant a better player than me, not your good self, Snaaty.

 

[futurehermit]

Snaaty plays on deity so yeah I'm not there yet, but I'd like to see it on emperor. I think I'll try it out in the first LBD challenge. As long as things progress that way (since I'll be prioritizing everything to do with )

 

[Snaaty]

you need alphabet to trade. Since the average AI goes for math-kallendar-currency-metalcasting, you run a quite big risk to have to wait quite some time until one has alphabet to start your trades.

Time is essential. Most problems occure at about 1000 BC, when you have 3 cities and want/must expand more. If you have to wait before you can trade for CoL & Currency, you will face serious economical problems (as always, in my opininon)

 

[futurehermit]

True, but like I said, you can allow alphabet and literature as a diversion before going up toward optics so that you can trade. With MC you should be able to trade for currency and col as soon as the other civs have them available.

Of course if you want to expand asap you would want to self research currency and col outright. However, those techs are more expensive than alpha-lit and thus are a more expensive diversion away from optics beeline.

I guess the end result would be limiting expansion while teching to MC. Chopping GW so you get Machinery by lightbulb is one option. Also see lilnev's new thread about using first GS to lightbulb compass while self-researching MC. You can use those two techs to trade for other priorities while you head up the optics path.

 

[Immaculate]

Early optics and sailing across the oceans is great indeed. Only researching Metal casting and machinery seems like a pain, these techs are expensive and mostly useless in the early game(or so i've always thought). Maybe there's a path where you can get MC from the oracle and lightbulb Machinery subsequently? Don't know if this is possible.

Check out Spain takes the Low Road where i lightbulb metal-casting with the great merchant generated by the great lighthouse and set to light-bulb machinary with the second great person (a scientist from a library's specialist). If nothing else, it will give you an idea of how it can be done to shave the two biggest techs (in their times).

The great lighthouse can be used like a double currency to help keep your empire afloat.

 

[futurehermit]

That spain takes the low road approach is very interesting. I've never considered lightbulbing machinery with a GS. I will have to put some more thought into that...

Couldn't you do it with your first GS assuming you took MC off of the oracle? It would require you to trade alpha for math and then hopefully MC for Calendar in time to unlock Machinery...

 

[lilnev]

you need alphabet to trade. Since the average AI goes for math-kallendar-currency-metalcasting, you run a quite big risk to have to wait quite some time until one has alphabet to start your trades.

One of the changes in the Warlords patch is that the AI values Alphabet more highly. They'll often go for it right after Math and IW, though sometimes they'll go for Monarchy, Calendar, or Currency first. I suspect this change was to keep the player from holding the Alphabet monopoly forever and ever, as used to be possible. But it has the consequence that it's now much more feasible to skip Alphabet and plan to pick it up in trade.

peace,
lilnev

 

[Snaaty]

@ lilnev:

Didn´t know that... ... thanks for the info... ...that changes things quite a lot

 

[Winston Hughes]

I decided to stick to the standard research-path for islolation:

- techs for land improvements
- archery (defence, didn´t go for bronze working)
- alphapeth-literacy (had no marble, but it´s fairly easy to get the great lib on emperor when you get literacy fast)
- CoL-Philosophy
-Currency
-Civil Service
-Paper
-Education
-Liberalism

Could you explain why that's the "standard research-path" for isolation? I'm quite the fan of isolated starts, and have found a couple of surefire ways to approach them on Monarch or lower (either Optics-beeline or culture-crazy), but this approach is new to me.

Is it just a case of getting as far down a single tech-path as you can before the AI arrive, to ensure that you've got plenty to trade with? Or is there more to it than that? And what's your approach once you've backfilled the tech-tree and picked up Astronomy?

 

[futurehermit]

Frankly that's my normal build order on non-isolated starts

 

[Winston Hughes]

Frankly that's my normal build order on non-isolated starts

I take it you're not a warmonger...

 

[futurehermit]

Well, I take out archery and add in anhusb and bronze for my early war efforts. I also have construction in there and trade for iron

Don't worry, I'm a warmongerer, but that does resemble my normal build order